Amy Chan Interview Recording - Google Drive
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Amy Chan Interview Recording - Google Drive: [00:00:00] once again, thank you so much, Amy, for taking the time to come and chat.
Especially our relationships. 'cause I think this is something that so many of us Are so curious about. It's like the one big thing in so many of our lives. But before we dive into that, can I just ask for our guests who haven't really met you and your brilliant work yet, can you describe in your own words who you are and what you do?
Yeah, so I study the psychology of interpersonal relationships and I've really built a niche around breakup. So I'm the founder of Renew Breakup Bootcamp. We take a scientific approach to healing the heart, [00:00:30] and I wrote the book Breakup Bootcamp, the Science Everywhere on Your Heart. So everything I do is on the psychology, really practical research backed tips on how we can create healthier relationship patterns.
Yeah, that's a little bit about me. I've been called like the scientific version of Carrie Bradshaw, which I think is a compliment. Yeah, I love it. From Sex to the City, right? Yeah. Yeah. I used to love that show. Yeah. That's something that I've, only recently come to admit. Yeah. So anything else that you know your, book of course has made a splash.
Is there anything else that along your journey [00:01:00] that has been quite. Pivotal for you. That has shown Yeah I definitely didn't think I was gonna be a breakup expert when I was young, and I definitely disappointed my parents who thought I was going to be a lawyer. But the way it came about was relationships was the one area I continued to struggle with since I was really young.
And I couldn't understand it because I got good grades. I was able to get good jobs. So I figured if I could understand and unpack the science behind it then maybe I wouldn't struggle so much. And I started off as a relationship [00:01:30] calmness for a Vancouver newspaper called the 24 Hours. Cool.
And from there I finally got in a relationship. In my late twenties and I thought I met the one, and that relationship fell apart very abruptly one day. And oh, I put so much of my identity in him and us and that future that was painted that without that I really fell apart. I struggled.
Like it was real, real bad. Oh no. And when I finally emerged out of that I, just asked myself, I was like, [00:02:00] man, what happens to the people who don't have friends that will support them, who don't have couches to sleep on? 'cause you don't have your own home anymore. Who know what books to read, who don't have a therapist?
What happens to them? Because I really struggled and I thought, I have to be the one who creates something where people can go after a breakup to heal. And it's not just yoga. They are getting expert advice from psychologists, behavioral scientists, so that they can shift their pattern so they don't keep repeating the same thing.
And so that's how Breakup [00:02:30] Bootcamp was born. So yeah, I would say that the thing that I thought was the worst thing that had happened to me ended up being the best thing that had happened to me. I love that. I, want to hear especially about that first part a little bit more though because it's not a traditional path for a lot of Asian Canadian, Asian American.
Yeah, my mom was the same thing. I, was given the doctor, lawyer or engineer speech. And it's actually a funny 'cause I actually had a short time, or I went into the relationship coaching world. Not as a full-on coach, but just explored that. But I'm really curious, how did you get, decide to start doing that interpersonal research and, start this [00:03:00] career path? yeah at, first it was really just a personal interest and a passion and I blogged about it and I was like one of the first like WordPress bloggers back in the day. Love it.
I never knew what I was gonna do with all of it. I just knew one day all of this body of work would turn into something. fast forward 15 years later, a lot of that content I used for my book. And I was working in New York as a chief marketing officer. A, company called Spin. There are these ping pong clubs, and I started this company on the side.
It was [00:03:30] supposed to just be a passion project, and I launched the first one. It got a lot of press, and then I had no choice but to launch another one because now I had all these inquiries, and then after like my second one, I recognize, I'm like, I have something here. There's, a lot of people interested.
It's actually helpful. The retreats were really, Fulfilling. And I was like, okay, I need to de-risk leaving corporate and a steady paycheck to start this thing, which is just an idea. And that's what I did. Wow. That must have been quite a leap, like took, a lot [00:04:00] of courage out that.
Yeah, I mean it was definitely really scary because I've been someone who had valued safety my whole life. And it was, to be honest, like after a psychedelic therapy session that I got the courage to resign. I love it. On a personal level, basically I think it's called plant medicine assisted journeys or, therapy.
These days, like just think there's so much and that we're looking into science at that. Yeah. Okay, I think this is the number one question that you probably get every single day. How do you get get over a breakup? How do you get over that heartache? So There's a [00:04:30] model that I look at, which is that there's seven stages of healing after a breakup.
And my, podcast that I'm actually launching in September is gonna break down each one of these stages. And just want people to understand you can hop around the stages. There's nothing abnormal about that. And it is based off the stages of grief from Elizabeth Kler Ross who looked at people who were dying.
But. The very first stage is shock. And at this stage you need to just allow yourself to feel. And I think for a lot of overachievers out there, the mistake they make is they try to dive [00:05:00] into cycle, analyzing their ex and themselves. There is a time and place for that, but it's not in the beginning and in the beginning stage, you are in shock, you're in denial.
You just have to keep continuously processing. And remind yourself. This relationship is over because even if logically, you know it's done, your body doesn't get the memo. So it's gonna cause you to get into a very motivational state to reach out to your ex to stalk their social media. that's probably one of the biggest things you don't do.
Yeah. Don't text them. Don't look at their IG stories with your Finsta. All of that just strengthens the old [00:05:30] neural pathways that are associated with your X and it will prolong your process. So I think that's one of the big takeaways is the no contact rule.
It actually makes sense on biological level. And I, think another thing that happens later on in the stages, which is like depression and anger, is we can get really caught up in a story where we're the victim. Of whatever happened. And we repeat that story and we try to get people on our side that they're a narcissist or whatever it [00:06:00] is.
And yeah, like I'm sure you've had friends maybe who are like in it and, then what happens is everyone's yeah, what a jerk. What this? And, it's just, Doesn't help. And the emotional charge actually keeps you attached. So sometimes we hold on to the pain and the anger and the resentment because subconsciously it's the last part of the relationship that we've got left.
So being mindful of that as well. I remember when I was going through breakups in the past, like that kind of heartbreak moments. I definitely had those kind of times where I've wanted to go through and check [00:06:30] all the past messages and all that kind of stuff and relive that, and I've definitely felt that sense of, Victimization oh, like these are all the things that they've done wrong. So you're suggesting is that in those kind of contexts, I'm actually worsening my situation by strengthening that neural pathway by repeating all the same thing Yeah. And, so sometimes we'll actually replay memories or even fights as our way to stay connected.
And, again, like when I say there's different stages, like understanding what your ex did wrong per se is one of the parts, right? When people are [00:07:00] in a depressed state and there's a tendency to sometimes. Put their ex on a pedestal, like they're the one who got away. At that time, we almost have like selective amnesia of all the reasons why it didn't work out.
Because the pain of missing withdrawal is so big that we're like, oh no It's totally fine. And, so when I'm working with someone who's in that state, I actually have them really write a list of what were the things that. Didn't go well. they unavailable?
Did they stonewall? And then they're like, oh yeah, there was this, oh, and that and this and, it launches [00:07:30] them outta depression and anger, So when someone's in depression, tapping into the anger and the injustice can launch them out of depression. And it shows that energy is moving.
So again, different strategies are required for where you are in the healing cycle. This reminds me a little bit I don't know if you're familiar with the, Stephen Cartman concept of the drama triangle. Where people go into the persecutor victim kind of cycle that we go into.
I feel like that's very reminiscent of that, where we go into that. It's oh, like they were amazing and then no, they were the worst. In this kind of like [00:08:00] obsession that we go through. Since this is big Asian energy and we talk a lot about Asian American experiences, do you feel like.
Asian people, maybe culturally speaking or upbringing or, whatever it is maybe we just watch a lot more kdr than others. Do we process breakups or relationships differently? I don't know about processing the breakups. I think you definitely see in the research.
Depending on your attachment style that you would process it differently, and we can go into that as well. But I think in terms of Asians who, identify with more collectivistic values, sure. Harmony having faced, [00:08:30] keeping face. Oh God. And not ever, we don't talk about it.
don't be a squeaky wheel. There's all these things that can be beneficial in our culture, but can also wreak havoc in our relationships, and whether that's personal or professional. And I know just personally speaking as an Asian woman and learning a lot from my mother, was these values of Don't say anything.
Or just be really accommodating. And I've seen it just bleed into my relationships and I've had to actually rewire and be like, [00:09:00] wait a minute, where did I get this habit from? Is it serving me now? It might've been a way of being that served me in the past as a survival mechanism, but really Taking stock of what are the habits that we got from culture, from our parents from society and asking if they serve us today and what we need to shift them so that we could be relating in a more healthy way. I think one of the things that you talked about in the collectivist culture context was, at least in my experience, what I have seen I have had friends who I didn't realize they had gone through a divorce.
[00:09:30] Because they, felt like they had to keep that internally to themselves. And I feel like I've seen this pattern in myself, I've seen this pattern in some friends, is that we have a pattern in which we wanna wait until we have it figured out to share. Now, does that impact our relationship and breakup journey as well?
Definitely. I think you made a really good point. Like we wanna figure it out first. And I think that does tie into the collectivistic values, which is. Always making sure that you can face right. Like there's no problem here Yep. And so Yeah, because shiny, [00:10:00] imperfect that is Yeah, for sure.
It's a way of emotional suppression. And avoidance and minimizing and I think one of the challenges of the Collectivistic values is that, It doesn't promote vulnerability. And being open with your humanness and the flaws that we all have. And, I think that if we don't, we can miss out on getting support.
We can miss out on being able to process what's actually going on. And I think it puts a lot of pressure when you are suffering or having a hard [00:10:30] time to have it all together or have all the answers when you need help, you need a frigging village for this stuff. Yeah, that's huge, right?
Because to be seen even as part of the processing. To be seen, to be heard, to go through and to be held. I, run a men's group, actually I run an Asian men's group and one of the things I commonly see is there's so much pressure with guys to go no, we have to have it all together.
We're given very limited social context. After a breakup where it's okay, you can go and drink with your friends, get plastered drunk, and then probably start [00:11:00] going on Tinder within the next week. But actually feels like it elongates the process. It makes it more complicated.
I, know people who feel like they haven't recovered from breakup years later. Yeah. And so the research actually shows that generally speaking, men and women tend to react to breakups differently. And again, this isn't everyone, but Sure. Men tend to avoid distract and minimize. And what happens is they might, in the beginning, seem like they're over the breakup really fast, but it catches up to them later in the form of [00:11:30] regret. Or baggage, and it actually takes them longer to get over the person. Whereas with women, there's more of a tendency to grieve it all extremely intensely. Like from the beginning. And once they do that, all that stuff comes up. They're able to process relief, release, move through it.
once they move forward, That's very powerful. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah. In your experience I, know that you run workshops and you do programs. Do you also do one-on-one coaching as well? Yeah, I do private mentorship and group mentorship.
That's, very powerful. So one of the things you [00:12:00] mentioned earlier was the word patterns. And we understand these to be behavioral patterns or adaptive patterns that we go through. Is that right? For sure. And how do these patterns play out? What are some of the common patterns that you tend to see in either relationships or the support and separation?
I, think attachment styles it has been studied and researched and that's probably worth noting. So basically the theory is that by the age of around two or three, we develop an attachment system, which will pretty much determine how we relate romantically as adults. Depending on [00:12:30] how safe and consistent and stable our primary caregiver was.
That creates an emotional bond where we can know if you're securely attached and you had a, caregiver who was there for you, then you know oh, intimacy is safe. I can trust this person. And when you grow up, That transfers onto your romantic partner. And you are able to move through fights you don't put your entire identity or sense of self-worth on the person.
And that securely attached is where we want to strive to be. Then there's avoidantly [00:13:00] attached, which usually veer up more men. Than female. And I think it's a lot from how we're socialized. Avoidantly attached have fear of intimacy, taking away their autonomy or independence.
And it often happens if you had a caregiver who was controlling or very smothering or didn't meet your needs at all. So as a young baby, you learn that, oh, intimacy actually isn't safe. It's going to either suffocate me or I know I can't count on it. So what's the point anyway? I might as well be so extremely independent that I [00:13:30] don't need anyone.
And yeah the, hard thing with people with avoid attachment style, they don't ever think that there's a problem with themselves. So they're less likely. Yeah, they're less likely to like, read the books or go to therapy for these things. 'cause they're like, oh, I just haven't met the one.
And then, Third type, which is the one that handles breakups the hardest is anxiously attached. Sure. And there is a very subconscious fear of abandonment or rejection. And when they sense that there's disconnection They will do what's called protest behavior. So that's when [00:14:00] they might punish.
So it's oh, you took five hours to text me back. Screw you. I'll take five days. Yeah. Or they'll call it crazy. I've been there. Yeah. And they're, all hypervigilant to any cues that the connection might be in jeopardy. And again, whether you're avoidant or anxious, because they tend to attract one another.
The goal is to become more secure yourself, and it is a spectrum, so you can be securely attached, but then you know, you lose your job and then you're. the person that you love moves across the country, and then your [00:14:30] anxious attachment comes up. So it, does fluctuate, but unless you're really doing the work on becoming more secure, it generally stays the same.
That's, important is doing the work. I remember something that I learned from my own therapist was that to some degree we're all what you're talking about. We're all. I, feel like the word doomed isn't a right word here, but there's a part of us, there's a programming where we're going to replay some of the patterns from our own Now that is interesting because again, relationship and Asian cultures oftentimes look very different in relationship with Western cultures, my parents didn't [00:15:00] grow up saying, I love you to each other. There wasn't a lot like they expressed love more through actions and sacrifice, and it was very much a partnership.
But, and food. And food. Oh my gosh. Or, clothing. Did you eat yet? Have you eaten yet? I'm sending some food your way. like, mom, I, oh man. I guess my question is you and I, we are in North America. We have different options for relationships. Going through this how did you learn to model a more healthy dynamic of relationship, I could use that word, tentatively, right?
'cause Different cultures, I think [00:15:30] understanding this concept called attractions of deprivation, also known as repetition compulsion, has been helpful and it explains how we are drawn to people who can wound us in a very familiar way to how we are wounded as children, and our psyche subconsciously tries to recreate the scenario of the crime.
In an attempt to change its ending. So I had a father who was an immigrant. He was in Survival State. He had a shop in Chinatown, and it was work, I never got to see him. He wasn't there emotionally. He [00:16:00] didn't tell me that he thought I was an amazing human. Like none of that stuff.
And he was very unavailable. And so when I grew up, when I looked at the people I dated, I was like, oh in my teens and twenties, I dated only DJs and club owners. And then in my thirties it was only like tech entrepreneurs. And I'm like, oh, there's no, no pattern here, look, at the emotional. Experience. It was exactly the same. And that was one of anxiety, one of trying to prove my worth. One of trying to get their attention and their love and to earn it. By being [00:16:30] perfect. And it was exactly the same relationship dynamic and emotional experience I had with my father.
I think really stepping back to look at. What emotional experience is repeating is the very first step to identifying the pattern and then looking at where, did this come up? Where in my childhood did this come up? And where was it actually a survival or protective mechanism that served me in that time?
And how does it need to be updated now? And it's not an overnight. Thing. It is a constant journey. And I think I still [00:17:00] do it right. Like even overgiving has been something I've had to really work on throughout the years and being able to receive. So can you explain overgiving a little bit just for the audience?
Yeah. So Overgiving is just. Giving, giving, and then feeling resentful that you're not being appreciated for it or people aren't balancing it out. And on the outside it could look very heroic, but when you look at the source of where it comes from it's actually not coming from a place of abundance.
It's coming, at least personally for me. [00:17:30] And when I work with a lot of clients, this whole tendency to overgive comes from a place of not feeling. And so you feel that you need to give in order to gain love, or you give as a way of having control? Or you give as a way and not receive as a way to keep people at a distance.
Because. To be relational requires a flow of giving and receiving. that's one of the patterns I've had to learn how to break. And that's a big one, especially given our cultural backgrounds, like self-sacrifice is always [00:18:00] held as one of the highest values.
And the idea is that if we keep giving and giving, then at some point someone will recognize us. Someone will return that. sometimes I remember in the book Noah, Mr. Nice guy on the guy side of things. We look at that as being give to get right energy.
It's the fixer energy. If I be the nicest guy you ever know and give you everything you need, then if you always need me, then it's okay if you don't want me. Oof. Yeah, that one hits, right? Yeah. Mic drop. Yeah. So this is super powerful. What about on the other side of things, which is before the [00:18:30] breakups one in this day and age, I think dating has become very complicated.
quote, unquote, back in my day, right? Like when I was growing up, there's a little bit more where like you'd meet people and you test things out. You go on a date. Nowadays there's 12 different apps. There's 32 different couples. Ai. There's ai. Good god. Yeah. How do you advise people coming out are breakup patterns to maybe shift their patterns in looking for the next relationship?
I think if you actually want to create a healthy, committed partnership. You want to look at. What you've been optimizing and if your dating [00:19:00] strategy needs to be updated. So it is very normal in your teens and your twenties to optimize for things like looks adventure. Yeah. Excitement, right?
That person who's popular, who can get you in the club, who knows all the people who's charismatic, you're like, yes. Yeah. And, then when you grow, When you hit another stage of life, when you're like, I'm considering family, I'm considering creating a partnership with someone, that strategy I.
Often is outdated for the goal that you want, the outcome that you want, but a lot of the [00:19:30] times we use the same strategy. Yeah. So we are basing do we go on a second date or do we swipe on this person based on these things that really don't matter. And that's, looks, that's height, that's how much money they make.
That's the type of jeans that they wear. That only matter in the short term. But what happens is you adapt to it. So you could be dating someone who's 10, outta 10 outta hotness maybe in other areas aren't a really healthy person for you. Yeah, in around two years.
You will adapt to that hotness. So you're not gonna have that rush of [00:20:00] dopamine and excitement because you scored 10 outta 10. you'll see them you'll, just go back to baseline. So it's not gonna carry the relationship. It might ignite it in my ignite lust and attraction.
So I think really being aware that this lust and this, oh my God I, wanna rip your clothes off. It changes and a healthy partnership goes through first what's called passionate romantic love. That usually lasts between eight months to two years. And after that, it changes and evolves into companionate love.
And it's a different host of chemicals [00:20:30] that happen. It's less dopamine, it's more oxytocin, it's more bonding. It's more I know I could rely on this person. There's this kind of familial stability And people think that there's something wrong when that happens, when actually it's just the relationship maturing.
deep love that we go into after the honeymoon phase, so to speak. More colloquially, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's huge. Yeah. Do you see any patterns with the, people who come to find you, like in terms of why they are going through a breakup, even what was the reason of the breakup?
you find that there are certain things that mistakes, let's say, like common mistakes that [00:21:00] people are making in the relationship that leads them to that point. Yeah, I think one of the patterns is there's way too much priority on chemistry. And chemistry really screws them over.
Interesting. And the person that you have 10 outta 10 chemistry with is usually that's a red flag versus a green light. And people get that confused, and I don't blame them. We grew up watching fairytales and. And sex in the city. It's a traumatic moment and, we think that it should be this intensity and intensity is usually your nervous system being activated uhhuh.
And it could even be a trauma bond. Sure. So [00:21:30] if you have a history of not having a very accurate, what I call a chemistry compass 10 outta 10 chemistry. Is not your person. It's maybe for a fling, but it's not your person for a partnership. So I think that's one of the things.
And number, two, I think not being clear on what your values are and your non-negotiables, and really just reacting to relationships. So if someone is. Trying to court you or a relationship happens instead of being intentional and mindful of it. You just let it happen.
And, so when [00:22:00] that happens, I think the problem that occurs is we get positivity bias. Especially if we really want a relationship or we're at a certain age, we will then ignore all of the other things. But if you actually have a list of these are my guiding values.
Because that's what matters in a long-term relationship. And these are. Of the non-negotiables, you're kill list. Yeah. And if someone hits any of them, it's not a oh, but maybe in rational it's a no. And we let too many of the non-negotiables slide and then my clients, it get to this point where I don't know how I got here.
There were red flags the entire [00:22:30] time. Yeah. What are some examples of non-negotiables that you oftentimes advise people to look for? I, think it's different for everyone. So for example, for one person, it could be like, you must be monogamous, but there's some people who are more open, so that's not right.
Yeah, sure. I know like for me, hard drugs is a no, but psychedelics is okay. Yeah. I, think one of the things that would save a lot of heartache and suffering, if you want a committed partnership. Unavailability. And so someone who emotional availability lives in another Continent. And you don't have the [00:23:00] schedule or the money to be able to make a long distance relationship work. tough. It's a no. They're physically unavailable to create the bonding required for a partnership. Emotionally unavailable. Their people are showing you all the time with their words, their actions, their non-action.
So pay attention to those things and I think. Don't be so quick to, be like, oh my God, like this is the person. There is a period of time where there's evaluation. Yeah. You're not just waiting to be chosen. You are the one who's deciding do we have enough of a match [00:23:30] values wise, life, vision wise, is there integrity?
Have you seen them through stress? Have you seen how they treat the wait staff? and you won't know that right away because in the beginning everyone has their representative for the first three months. That's great advice. Yeah. Huge point. Can I ask, 'cause we talked about this earlier, what does your parents think about your work?
Yeah. I don't even know, like my parents are so traditional Chinese, yeah they, think it's great if I'm on television but they don't understand if I'm on the New York Times. Like it's just, yeah. I don't know. stretch [00:24:00] is such a range. That's so funny. And everything is did you get paid?
Did you get paid? I'm like yeah, Oh I didn't get paid to be on the New York Times. Yeah. Oh, why? I'm like, okay, whatever. Yeah. Because I feel like it's such a tough thing to explain. I even some of these concepts we're talking about, they're mental health related concepts.
They're not easily propagated in their generation. So I'm always so curious when people tell, especially ones who are from more traditional families, like what do your parents say? And. My parents have largely just go I don't know. He, talks, he gives speeches. I'm like, that's fine.
[00:24:30] That'll work. Thank you so much, Amy. I so appreciate your time. I usually like to end off on one questions, which is always you have a golden rule in your life that you kind of practice? There's probably a lot. yeah, you just went through a bunch.
Yeah. I, would say one of my ways of doing life is I'm very in tune on energy. And I use that as my guiding principle. So whether it's a new friend to be like do I want to spend more time with this person to a project? I really look at what [00:25:00] sparks energy and what zaps it, and I use that as my first filter before I go into the logical parts.
Thank you so much. Yeah. That's such a great way to take a look at something. Amy, how do our listeners regardless of whether they're going through breakups or just wanna find out more about you, how do they reach you and your work? Yeah, you can follow me on Instagram at Ms. Amy Chan or my websites, review breakup bootcamp.com.
So Amy I understand that the best way to find you is on your Instagram and on your website. You have workshops, right? Courses. Yeah. [00:25:30] So I, I have breakup, bootcamp retreats. And I do personal mentoring and coaching. Perfect. Thank you so much for your time today, Amy. You are so appreciated.
Thank you. Thank you for doing all the work that you do. Thank you.
