Jerry Won Interview Recording - Google Drive
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Jerry Won Interview Recording - Google Drive: [00:00:00] let's jump into this. Okay. So Jerry for our guests that haven't met you yet, can you describe your own words, who you are and what it is that you do? Sure. Hi everybody, and thanks John for having me on your show.
do a lot of different things. I have done a lot of even more things, and what I can distill it down to is I want to bring people and uplift people to the intersection of impact and income. And particularly for me, it is helping Asian American folks largely and Asian people globally. To figure out ways that we can both help others, and that's the impact piece.
And to [00:00:30] use our stories, but also to build businesses so that we can take care of our families, we can invest back into our communities and, to really take care of ourselves. And so for me in this chapter that looks like having built a media company and having Dear Americans podcast be the anchor of that, that has led to me having a very great speaking business that I'm very grateful for.
And so I have worked with companies like Google and Amazon have spoken at Harvard Business School and even been invited to the White House to speak on topics that range from Asian American experiences to leadership, to building a brand online. And [00:01:00] also includes building a, business in the creator economy where we are building a community of like-minded Asian content creators to build businesses with each other.
and it looks like a lot of different things, but at the core of it is how can we get people to figure out what their story is? How do we get it out? And then most importantly, because you need this to have it sustained, how do we build the business around it? And the short answer to that is let's help people figure out how to make money doing that.
Nice. And that's huge, right? Like you represent such a major collect, like not just one voice. Like a lot of people we've talked to, they've got a great platform, they've got a great [00:01:30] voice, but you have just like media has dear Asian Americans, b Asians Jan Chi show Asian podcast networks.
Like, how did you think of, let me get involved in this. Like how, did this whole journey start for you? Because you used to work for Fortune five hundreds. Yeah. Short answer. I got fired like four years ago. And the journey to getting fired is interesting because, and then that's, you don't find that on the bio, on the website, but yeah.
After college, 10 years of sales and marketing work doing selling homes for real estate developers, insurance mortgages, all the fun stuff that's a pretty common path for a lot of Asian [00:02:00] people, right? It's interesting 'cause back when I was in school, a lot of my friends went into the traditional like finance fields, finance, accounting.
Yeah. Like three. Consulting wasn't really in the radar back then for business students. Or at least not U S C. It's a much, much smarter school now. And I, understand that. Many U s C students now aspire to go into consulting. It's a big, feeder group. Yeah. now it is back then it wasn't then business school then consulting U s c exited. So we work. And really four years ago after being recruited to a company to lead their west Coast sales efforts after seven weeks they said, Hey, [00:02:30] we think we made a mistake. And I said probably No, Hold up. You said seven weeks. Seven weeks. What company was this after they recruited me don't exist anymore which is interesting. clearly because They fired me. I don't even have them on my LinkedIn. 'cause it was just so short. But, so a couple things happened. When, this happened in August of 2019.
tactically when somebody recruits you over and wants to lead sales org there's a lot of Guarantees, but promises made to compensation of certain bonuses and, Yeah. Packages, bonuses, all that. Yeah. they paid me all that out for two quarters up front.
' cause that's what I was promised. And so I said, great, this is dope. Great. [00:03:00] Awesome. I got a chunk of money. And I, found myself at a crossroads. And so the crossroads was this at this point I had gone to grad school, I had done big business, small business, startups, different roles.
Strategy, sales. Like I had done a variety of different roles called work, and I was always looking for meaning in two different ways. One, like professional fulfillment of am I doing good work to help something? And then two, like what am I doing to help my community? cause you can make money. Yeah. But again, to exist at the intersection of income and impact, how can I find that impact piece? 'cause the [00:03:30] income was there. you, say community, Just for context, like what do you define as being, this is my community, that word has, evolved quite a bit yeah.
In the last few years. And for me too community for me is like-minded people. So in this instance, and in this context is Asian American community, in different circumstances, it can mean more of a localized la local, Korean American community. But it's virtually what you're doing has to be a little bit more than just yourself, And so we can all be good at making money and then going into our own corner of the universe. And that's [00:04:00] fine. But I, don't think that's what our parents wanted for us, I think, I don't think that's what our grandparents suffered for. And, regardless of where you come from and what your grandparents went through they sacrificed for some greater good. And so what is that version for you and me today? You have this great platform called Big Asian Energy. We're trying to amplify Asian voices and to also make Asian people feel seen and heard, and to empower them. That's building community Making money working for a big company, making money, not caring about not voting, not getting involved or not teaching your kids how to then lead communities. and, in some unfortunate way and that's not a judging anybody [00:04:30] here, but I, wish that we could all carry on to some of the things that our, parents and our grandparents did so that we can further positively impact whatever, however you define community. so you got fired from I got fired and I was like, you know what? And when you get fired the, immediate thing is, oh shit, I need another job. Yeah. And and like going back to LinkedIn after seven weeks it was like the weird Six weeks ago, you're like, I found my new home.
I feel so happy here. I love these guys 'cause I did. You're telling everyone. Yeah. Yeah. And then it's oh shit. Like it's not there anymore. So, the initial knee jerk reaction is to go find another thing. And the, more I thought [00:05:00] about and even on the drive home that day, I was like shocked, number one, that just happened.
And, two I was angry but there was a sense of relief of is this the time to do something that like, feels right in my heart in addition to making money? And my wife will tell a very different version of this story 'cause she remembers it differently.
But I said, Hey, look, like I genuinely feel like if I went to get another job, Whatever would check the boxes of what a post m b a job would look like from a organization title, income perspective. Will I really be happy and, is there a world where I can be [00:05:30] both happy and make money because in this binary construct of make your money, but serve your community in a different way.
Or find meaning somewhere else. But we, were also taught that's, not what happens at work. So we, were taught and we were conditioned to think that work, is where you go to make money. Yeah. And then you go do stuff on the backend.
refuse to believe that. I, genuinely think that there are, this was four years ago, so the way that we think about the creator economy very, different. Yeah. And what I didn't have the words for then is how introduced myself today is like, let's live at the intersection of impacted income.
How do we do that? And so for me, I don't think that I could live at the intersection of impacted [00:06:00] income if I were for somebody else. ' cause they dictate what impact means for you. Sure. And so in terms of uplifting and amplifying the Asian American voice in a large corporation means very limited resources.
very limited opportunities. Maybe it's through the employee resource group or ERGs. Maybe it's mentoring somebody unofficially from a young person that looks like you. But it's very, limited because they're in any large organization, you are there to do one thing. You are there to trade.
Yep. Their money for your time and expertise. to make them more money. Yeah. In any case I made a deal with my wife at the time and I said, look they gave us a little bit of money. Let me figure this out. Let me [00:06:30] see if I can gimme six months try to figure this out.
To see if we can make this content thing And so I got super busy on LinkedIn. I, went gangbusters. We made a hundred consecutive days of video content on LinkedIn. I, gathered a following. I said all the things on LinkedIn that I've been wanting to say for years, but what were you saying on LinkedIn at this point?
don't remember everything I said a hundred years ago, but there were a few things that I think was a refreshing take on our relation to our relation as in Asian American in broadly speaking, but more so Asian American. And so we're taught by parents society, ourselves to not [00:07:00] complain.
So when somebody wrongfully harms you, whether it is through being fired or otherwise, don't fight back, you don't negotiate your contract, you don't demand. Time off, you always say yes because saying yes is conflict and we're, not told to invite conflict.
I was talking to, at the time, we just became parents of two encouraging fellow dads to take their damn paternity leave and exhaust your PTOs because companies don't care. No. when, I was doing consulting and traveling I had a panic attack in the middle of the night because I was like anxious about work.
And I was like, [00:07:30] why am I getting physically sick over spreadsheets and presentations? This is madness. And, talking to young people and they're like, I feel all these things, but I just feel like I can't say anything because I don't want to get fired. I don't want to get blacklisted. I don't want to get harmed because I work so hard to get here.
And this is not making light of somebody's compensation or income, but. $70,000 a year, hundred thousand dollars a year isn't worth your life. And the company won't give two shits about you if you croak over. They're gonna find somebody else to do your job. And guess what happens [00:08:00] immediately when something bad happens to somebody, they're looking to their lawyers and their PR people to say, are we at fault?
What is our exposure? So and again, I'm not saying this is about all companies and somebody's gonna email you or email me and be like, my company was nice to me. Cool. Good for you. But why can't that be like that for everybody? But the current companies, many of them they're not as human as they can be, and so it was just about all the things that had, I said a lot of these things when I was trying to get a job or when I was employed by another company it would not have ended well. Even things like one of the most thoughtful responses that I got [00:08:30] was a, post that I made about the importance and necessity about taking paternity leave for, dads.
And the saddest part was that I got these comments privately through dms not through comments on a thread. Not even through anything that was publicly visible. Then I realized that, hey, there's all these people that like resonate with this bad message that don't even want to, like a comment or a post because then it shows onto other people's feeds.
So they're afraid of possibly getting punished by their community or their companies or future seen as somebody who might max out their pat leave. And you're like, why [00:09:00] wouldn't you? What's more important than spending time with your kids? And so again all, these things and to, make a long story even longer we did that that led to a, different podcast that I ran under a different strategy.
And ultimately on March 2nd, 2020, which also happened to be my daughter's first birthday, I said, this is the day I'm gonna launch the Americans. why Dear Asian? was so curious about that. Yeah. Because like, why Asian? Because you're exactly, as you're saying, Asian Americans, we are taught to like, keep our head down, work hard.
Don't create conflict. And there's this underlining invisible energy that's don't speak too [00:09:30] loudly about how Asian you are. Sure. There's, this weird thing where it's like we know we're Asian, we know we're seen as being Asian, but we don't wanna draw too much attention to it.
For a lot of people we are in your background. Did that switch to the opposite where it's just screw you guys. I'm not only just gonna talk about this on LinkedIn, point out the problems, talk about the culture, but also come out and say, actually I'm gonna launch a whole podcast brand around it.
Yeah. I, think it was 20 years in the making. I just didn't know it, because we, don't know what we don't know. The idea was born out of, who did I get advice from? Who did [00:10:00] I get both Business life and just advice in general from both directly and indirectly growing up.
Wasn't us Right? Thinking about what we were told wasn't other Asian Americans, when you say us, It wasn't our people, it wasn't people who lived my life. It wasn't Korean Americans. It wasn't Asian Americans. Yeah. It was basically there were these go to the leadership section of your local bookstore and tell me who the author list 98%.
What do they know about being an immigrant? Yeah. What do they know about facing racism in this country? What do they know about being discriminated against? And, again, you and I are both educated, privileged East Asian [00:10:30] men. we're, up there on the privileged scale even amongst Asian Americans.
Yeah. Huge. Yeah. What the hell do we know about what it means to be woman a refugee adoptee even other marginalized identities. We do not. No. And so in, a world that was so obsessed with content when it came to life advice, who's providing the context of what it means to be a successful person from a particular Asian American lens?
And 20 years ago when I was in college, we because we had two problems. One, there really weren't an ample amount of Asian Americans who have charted their own path, who've done cool stuff. The supply of stories wasn't as robust. And then two, the distribution channels were [00:11:00] limited because the internet wasn't what it is like today. And there you would needed somebody's permission to get a radio show, to get a column in the newspaper to Yeah. Have a TV show. Yeah. usually needed a stamp approval from, a middle aged white guy. and then what are they gonna say?
Oh your, market's not big enough. Who's gonna care about your story? Oh my God. Yeah. So fast forward to 2020 and I was like, okay, we have both problem solved. Yeah. We have a ton of stories out there. Yeah. I am friends with a lot of these people. Yeah. Entrepreneurs or people who have made it in corporate America.
All these wonderful things. And we have this thing called the internet. Yeah. So we can make videos, we can make podcasts, and so that was it. Like why can't we [00:11:30] take care of our own people? Why can't we give each other advice? And why can't we share our own stories?
and then there's also this sort of cultural thing of we've been taught that the moment we talk about ourselves, it's bragging. Yeah. And that's bad. Shame on you for bragging about yourself. Stop boing. And at the intersection of that and some religious influences, like people really don't talk about themselves.
No. and, we've equated that with something in our head that says oh, if you don't talk about yourself, that's humble. And humble is good and humble gets rewarded, which is ridiculous. Humble does not get rewarded in this country. No. And in most modern cultures I, would even say it's not just this [00:12:00] country, but even if you're taking a look at.
Asian countries these days the, culture has shifted. We are becoming more individualists. You've gotta go out there and make a name. Yeah. Otherwise no one is going to come and give you that gold star anymore. And so how do you fix that You ask people to talk about themselves.
Yeah. And then they can't say no because you say no is also rude. And so you basically, we like, again, you are doing the same thing right now, John. If you create a platform for people to come and share their stories Yeah. It creates this wonderful thing where you diffuse everybody's defensiveness [00:12:30] or this hesitancy to want to share.
And, here's the thing that I have learned to accept. If you have life lessons that you learn through pain, through trauma, through really unfortunate things in life that have to do with your identity. And so whether you faced racism at work or that you figured this thing out that.
You don't share that so that it, makes it easier for the next person. You're being quite selfish. Totally. Because none of us are where we are on our own merit. Again, going back to what our grandparents and ancestors did for us to be here. Why are we withholding the secrets so that it makes my kids' life [00:13:00] easier the next time?
Yeah. We learn it from somebody else, correct. We were given the tools, we were given the, weapons to fight back, like absolutely pass it on. And so in a weird sense, assimilation wasn't the. Go-to playing card or the, strategy anymore. And so all, those things considered I said this is what I want to do. At, the time, I had no idea if it would be a business, if it would just be long, short-lived project. Yeah. I don't know who the hell would've listened And then about the timing, right?
So I launched this on March 2nd. We did five episodes in the first week, Monday through Friday. And then the week after, like America shut down 'cause [00:13:30] of the covid shit. And which was good and bad. Everybody thinks that we're a pandemic show, and I was like, no, we were just before the pandemic, which was good and bad.
so here, was the bad. That turned into good. Yeah. Yeah. So March was also the end of the six month negotiation that I had made with my wife of let me try to figure this shit out. Yeah, yeah, So all along I was interviewing, I was trying to get another job.
Yeah. A, job that I thought would. Give me the best chance to still fulfill my impact piece while making money. Yeah. And as with all like ip and if you've applied for multiple jobs or have switched jobs, you know this, like when you get hired, they have this sort of tell us everything that you own [00:14:00] today.
Yeah. From a digital IP perspective so that we know that you didn't make this on our dime. And so I wanted this podcast to be something that I could declare on the way in. Yeah. That I, it was check this was mine that they can't claim. middle of March everybody stopped calling back.
Nobody was hiring. And so we said that sucks. my kids were home. Yeah. Daycare closed. where, are we gonna go? We had all this time. Yeah. And so that got you the one that I wanted to talk to. They were also home. They, all had this time. Yeah.
Nobody had an excuse. 'cause what's everybody's excuse I'm sure. Yeah. I don't got time. You, I'm busy, right? I'm traveling. You're like, no you're not. Dude. March, [00:14:30] April and May of 2020 was like, I know. And you know that you're not going anywhere. You're home. We're all virtual. This is all over Zoom.
Just tell me, just gimme an hour. I will. We used to do early morning stuff, late night stuff, and I was like, I will meet you whenever it's convenient for you, but Yeah. You ain't going nowhere. Yeah. And so that was also nice. who were your best interviewees during that time? Who were your best guests? You've got big names, you got Kamala Harris, vice president came later. here's the other sort counterintuitive thing and I, still believe in it. And again, this is not a judgment on, your show.
I know you've recorded a bunch. I have no idea who these [00:15:00] other people are, so this is just about me, not about you. Yeah I, happen to think that my strong conviction is rather that what makes our stories so beautifully resonant is not based on how popular somebody is. It's, the experiences. Yeah. And so I, had two goals in the guest list curation department of the Asian Americans, One was that again, me as the Korean straight privileged man. I, always had this blind spot of I don't want this to be another Asian thing that exists in the world where it's just all Chinese and Korean dudes.
Yeah. There are certainly plenty of those things. Yeah. And [00:15:30] so how do I work around my own blind spots and my own biases and my own networks to make sure that, the cast guests would. Best reflect my ability the diversity of the Asian community, so that was the challenge.
And then two was I didn't want to celebrity chase. For, two reasons. The relatability of the average person that we talked to, huge is so close Yeah. To the average listener. Yeah. Two I happen to also think that longer you have enjoy the worldly privileges that celebrity and the wealth bring you you [00:16:00] naturally, and this is no fault of their own, you naturally forget about some of the painful moments in your life. Yeah. Or, it becomes harder to talk about because now you're having to uphold a certain image that others expect of you. Yeah. Or you have PR people saying, don't talk about that shit.
absolutely. We're not allowed to talk about stuff. between this time and this time it didn't exist. Yep. If you hear people in your ear, if you got coaches you're not coming to talk about No. The, painful immigration story of your family.
and I really, want to call this out because I've talked to at least a couple of really, let's just say like really accomplished C levels. [00:16:30] And one thing I heard is you can't talk about your corporate experiences as an Asian American, so you can't talk about microaggressions ' cause it makes us look bad.
We're gonna get sued. You can't talk about how people forgot your names or how people spoke over you, or how very clearly a position you were supposed to be given was given to outside hires. Very, clearly because they. Just literally forgot you existed. Like, these kind of stories and, I always am like, dude, we need to talk ab we need to talk about this at, the high levels.
But they won't. But they can't. They [00:17:00] can't. They can't. Yeah. So if, you also notice I don't have a lot of corporate people on my show because they can't talk about this stuff. And, they make terrible guess because, in the same vein that like, I found the ability to be me and to be authentic.
Yeah. Once I know was no longer employed. The opposite is also true. If, we're talking for a, long time and talking about personal stories And in the back of your mind you're thinking about, oh my God, is HR gonna care? Or is my partner gonna care? And I said, nobody gets final editing. this is our show. We're go straight. And, so the work around that was like [00:17:30] I'm just gonna have people who don't have that. Entrepreneurs, people who were doing in the beginning stages of covid, people who were building movements and creating spaces to talk.
And you look at the first like 20 guests or so, it's like there's not a lot of household names. And, that was by design. Yeah. ' cause again, and then to take people back to what the middle of 20, 20 felt like. monetizing was a bad word. Yeah. People especially around an identity topic.
Yeah. So it's like, why not just help people? I went gangbusters, man. Like did 50 episodes in the first a hundred days. God. And, I didn't bank content. [00:18:00] This was like, record today. Upload tomorrow. That's true. If you look at the, yeah, if you look at the Times stamps, like how did not burn out doing that?
What? I didn't have anything else to do. This was my job. Oh, that's right. Yeah. That's during the pandemic. We had nothing else to do. So I would record in the morning, upload at night. If you look at the timestamps, like there are some that were like two episodes a day. Like crazy, stuff.
'cause I was also obsessed with volume instead of yeah. Statistically thinking about releasing stuff. And I did not give some of my guests their, due their, fair chance in [00:18:30] having the content marinate. But especially into April and May.
The inbound request to speak on the show was so high and I didn't wanna say no to a lot of people. And I was like if I do two a week and I have 20, like I'm already 10 weeks out. I just wanted to, ask about this. Yeah. Having talked to so many people during that time were talking to two, three people, like you were releasing 50 different interviews.
What were the biggest trends that you were seeing? Were there any trends? Was there anything that kind of tied it together? 'cause that's always a question I constantly have when, we look at agents, [00:19:00] like as you said, we're so diverse, right? Yeah. What were the big trends that were like, what are the big experiences that you keep seeing coming I think especially in the beginning of 2020, it was like, my identity is important to me. My identity is a part of my business. It's a part of how I operate my business. And, again. there was a little bit of self-selection here because I interviewed people that were documentarians about the Asian American experience, or people who were building businesses from cultural elements like food and drink.
Or many of the Facebook groups that were being started or being grown aggressively during that time that brought people [00:19:30] together. to, use book terms. It was really narrative non-fiction rather than prescriptive, non-fiction. And difference being one is just listening for the sake of a story, and the other is, I wanna learn something.
The, whole point wasn't to, learn something, although you learn about somebody's experience. And why do we call it Dears of the Americans? Because it's a letter to us from us, and it's just this. When you write a letter, think about write somebody a letter.
Yeah. Oftentimes it's just storytelling. Dear John, here's how to make a shit ton of money. Here are the 10 bullet points. You don't do that. And although that, [00:20:00] does seem to be a lot of my email these days.
Oh yeah. So now we have this platform to talk to each other, talk to the community. Yeah. And so that was really important. And, again, I think people were having some of the same realizations that I was evolving with, which is how do I show up as myself?
Because one, the world needs it. Yeah. And two, the world's gonna treat you like this way anyway. Yeah. So how do you best prepare yourself to come be present and to, show up in a place where you can do all these things and, now we certainly had. Our, fair share of people and we continue to get [00:20:30] pitches quite a bit on yo, I got this new book coming out and that's all I want to talk to you about.
And then I have to write back in and say, look, I'm gonna ask you about some personal stuff going back to your grandparents. Are you okay with that? Yeah, And of course they say yes, but there are some interviews that I Stevens still think about me like, man, that was like really not a good one from like a authenticity perspective.
Because you could tell that they just want to get to, me, so my first, so my first question always is, yeah, lemme my pitch my thing. Yeah, It's I'm gonna tell you like two seconds of my family history. Yeah. Yeah. And then at the end of two seconds, my parents were immigrants, there are refugees.
Anyway, lemme tell you about this book. [00:21:00] Exactly. And I was like, yo, that's not the point of this. Yeah And, I don't know even as we're talking now, I'm scrolling through some of the people that we've gotten to talk to over the years and it's, pretty dope.
It, actually is, nudging me. should reengage with some of these people and see what they're up to because obviously them. What are some names that's popping up for you right now that you wanted to give a shout out to?
let's see if we go way back I'm actually gonna go see him perform today, but IV Satel, who's a Indian American comic, he was very gracious to actually that was one of the very few in-person interviews that we had. I went to his house in Glendale and or over Burbank rather.
[00:21:30] That was in really special and cool. We had very early on Benny Luo who started NextShark, who's been Oh yeah. A good friend of mine. Yeah. Brian and Maggie from Asian Hustle Network are early guests and huge and then there were some people that we actually ended up starting shows with.
Dr. Jen Cho, we started a podcast together called Korean American Parents from parenting As a result of this Nathan kj and Patrick, we started the Adoptee Show after they were on the show three different times. We, lost one friend from, the show Jen Yu, who was an early guest we lost into Covid in 2021.
it, is a very interesting sort of where we were then and where [00:22:00] we are now. Renee, Tajima Pena, who is a documentarian and who a series producer of the Asian Americans doc on pbs. Like an OG legend in my book. It was one of those I just cold emailed her and she said yes, and I was like, really?
Yeah, you, yeah. No background, no name. Just like one I've one number. I've a pushback, right? Yeah. No, nothing. But then again, it was like early May of 2020. Yeah. Nobody had she wasn't doing anything. I love that so much of your focus is on authenticity, right? Because I think for a lot of Asian Americans we've had to put together a shell To survive to, belong. And, it's [00:22:30] also just part of our culture, right? Yeah. We don't talk about the, shameful shit, right? The stuff like, we don't talk about struggles, we don't talk about failures. I, really think that authenticity is like the show is called Big Asian Energy.
I feel like that's big Asian energy. It's like the full, unapologetic, here's who I am. Were you always like that growing up? Was this always, oh, hell no, dude. Hell no. Ob obviously not. I got really good at blending in with all white guys, right? As Asian American kids even, like sports knowledge is different, right?
Yeah. So like American football. Like I went through a big football school, U S C for undergrad. Yeah. [00:23:00] Before that I don't think I knew how football worked. Because my high school didn't have a football team.
My parents don't know. and I remember I have this clear memory, like I was watching American football in, high school and like trying to figure out what the numbers in the screen meant. 'cause I, didn't know, and we didn't have Google back then and the late nineties.
Yeah. And, so things like that and like just assimilating. Yeah. it's funny because I also worked in sales Where most of my clientele were old white people. Yeah. And even my wife sometimes brings it up and certainly it's probably the voice that I'm talking with now, but, A lot of my friends would be like, [00:23:30] Jerry has a white voice, and then Jerry has a jerry voice.
we all do we could bring out the Asian voice. And, now we white voice have words for it, which is code switching and, Yeah. Code switching, assimilating and all these things. And no, but you know what? I, think again in their super well attentioned and loving yet limited wisdom our parents' definition of being successful here was to blend in. Yeah. It was not to stand out. No. Because standing out meant being targets of racism being treated differently. And so why not? Because they genuinely believed, and again, I know there's a lot of young people who like to shit [00:24:00] on their parents, but stop because one, as a parent, I can tell you there's no part of me that wants nothing but the best and nothing but health and safety for my kids. Yeah. And, two, our parents grew up in a complete And your parents grew up in a completely different era. Totally. Like my grandparents were born into, yeah. Horrible things.
It, doesn't matter what country, right? Pick your country. The history is off. It's a different time. different time. And so consider that in the context of where their advice is coming from. Yeah. And so that should humble you. in their best well intentioned yet limited wisdom, it was blend in as much as you can. Yeah. My mom would say, [00:24:30] go study hard. Go to a good school. Go join a big American company and stay there for as long as you can and let them take care of you. Yeah. And, I think that's so wonderful. That was good advice. That was good advice. And people except it doesn't work.
Yeah. Except it doesn doesn't work as an immigrant though. It's really hard. Yeah. And, again, there are people who made it work. Yeah. But I think we were all guilty as a community because we were so desperate. To have that be true. we took anecdotes Yeah.
And we turned them into data points. And so what I mean by in my particular case, my mother had a childhood friend who at the time when I [00:25:00] was in college, was a partner at a big accounting firm in America. He, was US based, went to school here, was in charge of the Korea practice then was set, then sent back to Korea to lead that office.
He actually gave me my, one of my internships. So I worked in Korea for a summer. And so from her limited perspective of her network here was the person she personally knew. For whom this worked be a partner. But think about that. He was not a partner of the white businesses. was pigeonholed into being the head of the career practice because that's the limitation of what they saw him good for.
[00:25:30] agency. Yeah. Correct. we, didn't think about that part. So anyway, so I think she would think about look at him. He's doing so well. We're so proud of him, right? he's a very successful American businessman. How many failed stories of people never making their partner we're ignored in that situation.
Yeah. But again, you never talk about it, but again, you don't ever want to tell your kids that they can't. So you're being like if you study harder enough, if you go to the right school, if you do blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, you'll make it. That's the thing. So that was the story. So I chased that, right?
I, chase being accepted. How many Asian dudes go into sales in America after college? Not very many but I was good at it, and I wasn't just like in charge of the Korean accounts, like I was good [00:26:00] with white people. So what was your journey like going from chasing after assimilation into this?
I just don't give a fuck. Big Asian energy. Like that authenticity of the Jerry Wong energy. I think it's everything. It, was having chased enough different things. So in my mind, I had this formula. Yeah. And so in this formula, it was all the components to employment. And then at the end, it would be some sort of like happiness quotient.
It's this imaginary formula that I built. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so you tweak and, us logical, smart people do, We try to tweak the formula. We try to whatever make, the formula efficient and spit [00:26:30] out some, a higher value. And I tried sales, marketing, salary, commission roles, small company, big company travel, no travel.
Working weekends, not working weekends, going to business school, getting a better job working for a consulting company. Having people think you're smart, getting extra letters after your name. everything. No, because you, didn't try. Yeah. I tried everything to try to tweak the formula.
Yeah. What I never did, John, was to challenge if the formula was broken to begin with. And so we continue to tell ourselves and our children that the formula works and you just have to find and tweak the [00:27:00] formula that works for you. And we don't give space to have the conversation that not everybody's supposed to fit into this stupid formula.
And so for me, the whole formula was messed up because it doesn't matter what components you put into it, it was an employment formula. And so you could put in any value you want. But the X factor was that it would be multiplied. Or be an exponent of employment. Was, there one of these experiences small company, big company sales or whatever it is that was kinda a pivotal point into kind of unlocking that?
Oh yeah. Because you work with creators and like to be a successful creator and, or you, work [00:27:30] with speakers, podcasters, it takes a certain amount of courage to say I'm gonna say something that goes against the grain. What you were doing right. To say, I don't really care.
I'm just, I'm putting it out there. This is what I believe in. This is who I am. Do you see that a lot with the people you work with? Yeah. I, think young people now have such a wonderful array of choices. And I think for me, people don't believe it when I say this, but I fell into this and I had no choice but to try this because nothing else worked.
I think people are choosing to be creators and I think that's wonderful. Because obviously there's also more economic opportunity. Again, I don't think like the employment formula broken [00:28:00] epiphany was totally correlated to now I just need to be this like loud Asian person.
But it, began with that, right? super clear, I can tell you down to the exact minute when this shit happened. Okay. And so my, son's on December 10th he was born in 16. And so during December of 2018 we were living in LA and I was consulting and our client was in Detroit, Michigan.
And so we were doing the stupid commute of LA to Detroit, which is awful. Detroit's wonderful. The commute's awful. It's a three and a half hour flight, but across three different time zones. And so the red eyes are not real red eyes. It's a [00:28:30] nap eye and it's, anyway, it's awful. Yeah. And as, typical in consulting, we had members from the team that were from all different parts of the country coming into work together.
So we had a number of different sort of work schedules where oftentimes we would fly in on the red eye and be there Monday morning. Sometimes we would fly Monday evening and be there Tuesday. And it was flexible for what it's worth. couple weeks before my son's birthday which was a Monday that year I emailed my senior manager and I said, Hey, it's my son's birthday. Would really love to spend the morning with him and have lunch with him. Can I work from home Monday morning? Take the last flight out.
Which would [00:29:00] mean that I would still be online until about four o'clock eastern, so the end of their workday. And then take the flight, get it out like midnight and I'll see you guys Tuesday morning. And I didn't ask for a day off or anything because we had just done this a long time, People did it all the time. They flexed on Mondays. She said no, because it's a very important week. And in fact can you fly in on Sunday or take the red eye and I wanna see you at 9:00 AM on Monday that day. And since I asked that way, now I can't like, call in sick.
All of us sudden. Yeah. So anyway it, hurt, right? And then I, will own it because we also have a family policy, like nobody works on birthdays. Yeah. But [00:29:30] for whatever reason that day or that year, and I was like I, goofed anyway I, suck it up. I take the red eye leaving home the day before my kids' second birthday, and for all the people that say oh, the kid's too young, so they won't remember Screw you.
I remember. And so that logic doesn't work. Yeah. So get to Detroit at five. Yeah. I hate life right now, I'm like, whatever we gotta figure this out. I get to the conference room at eight o'clock, and at eight 20, she pings me. Says, wasn't feeling well.
Didn't get on my flight. See you tomorrow. So here I am in Detroit. Yeah. On my son's birthday. Oh my God. In a literal, this is like the, shit writes [00:30:00] itself in a windowless conference room in frigid Detroit with me and the associate. Yeah. Because nobody came to work that There's a, bucket in the corner catching rainwater coming through and and I'm like, why the f am I here?
The, janitor coming by and going who are you people? And this, nobody showed up. Oh. Oh my God. that's a breaking point moment. Yeah. It, is. And when she came into work the next day, I was like people get sick. I can't get mad at for people getting Yeah. But.
There was never an apology. And there was never an acknowledgement of the fact that due to her actions that I missed my son's [00:30:30] birthday. And it was never brought up. Yeah. And I was like, and it wasn't her. I don't, as much as I would like to think that she was a shitty person, she is just a symptom of the system because the system rewards business decisions.
Why am I doing this? So again, he was two not old enough or not aware enough to ask these questions. And so I asked myself when the kids are old enough to ask me straight up about why do you have to leave us every Can I give them an answer I can be proud of?
Or not be ashamed of. And the answer was, this ain't it. Yeah. It can't just be [00:31:00] dollars. Yeah a, spreadsheet jockey and a PowerPoint person. Yeah. And that sort of began this sort of like, how do I do something that I can look my kids in the eye and say, Hey, I know it sucks.
and, doing what I do now, speaking across the country and then doing all this wonderful community building stuff. Like I leave home a lot. Yeah, totally. And it sucks because now they're old enough, they're six and four, so they ask and they say AB, please don't go.
And it effing sucks. maybe I'm justifying, who knows. But at least I can look them in the eye and saying, look, one, I'm doing this to make money for the family. Two, you guys don't realize [00:31:30] it now, but I'm trying to build a world that's safer for you guys. Yeah. And then there's a lot of people in our network, all aunts and uncles that in our own way at work, in the community and in government that we're trying just to make this place we call home safer for you guys so you can have better access to education, to healthcare, to whatever. and perhaps for, the folks listening, it's like, how do we, often obsess about how we spend money as, a matter of like responsibility.
Yeah. social responsibility often obsesses on how we spend money. And so my challenge to you all who are listening is how [00:32:00] do you make money? How can you socially, responsibly, and ethically make money? And the answer is yes. And it might be tough and it might be not the most direct path If you are justifying, Hey, I need to feed my kids, and again if you think I'm judging you, that's fine. That's on you. But if you are harming the world by making your money if you are contributing to that, just give it some thought. And again, I don't advise anybody to do what I did, which is to leave a post m b a comfortable situation to do LinkedIn podcast speaking, what is this?
My parents didn't even know what I did for a few years. COVID [00:32:30] really saved our ass, and like it just worked. I, assume if you have the time and the energy and the technology to listen to this conversation that yeah, you have some privilege and that you have options. And just like John has, right?
Like what can you do to use your, gifts, your opportunity and ultimately your privilege. To make this world a little bit better place for us too, while we're here. And then ultimately to our kids and our grandkids. Because this whole notion that our parents genuinely thought that we could outrun out, educate ourselves from and out, earn from racism.
It doesn't. No. And, for [00:33:00] people who continue to believe that please open your eyes and, read research papers and, think about how life is for sort people outside of your bubble. it was never true. It still isn't true. And unless we do something, it will continue to be true.
Beautiful. So I wanna bring this now to the core message of where you're now, which is finding ways in which impact meets income. For people who are listening I'm, willing to bet there's a couple of them who are in a job right now. That sounds a lot like the job that you're describing, which is, I'm putting in the time I'm trading money for for dollars.
And I'm like what, am I doing with my life? What is that gap, because that's the [00:33:30] scary jump to make, to go into let me create something that feeds impact as well as income. I don't think it's binary. I think people look at what you and I do, it's both scary and foolish to do what John and I have done, which is to put all our eggs in this basket.
It's absolutely ridiculous. Yeah. So don't look at us and been like, yo, do I quit my job and do this for a living? No there's a gray area of both like duality and transition. Yeah. We, live in a world where I'm still running my day job. I'm still running a business.
And, meet you like, so think about how you can [00:34:00] impact in your own way that makes comfortable, but do something, right? We don't all have to do the maximum. You don't have to start a whole podcast and do all these things, and even in your own micro community, whether it's just your family or , in your neighborhood figure out how do you make life easier for the next person?
That's all it is. It's not that hard, right? impact carries this super glorified heavy meaning it's purpose, it's not, it's find life purpose. You're helping somebody. Yeah. So impact and income is super simple. Impact. Help somebody, yeah. Income, make money from that. That's the essence of business, right?[00:34:30]
You're exchanging money for help. Yeah. But you have to figure out what the help is and how you are best suited to do it. And, there are far more eloquent and more thoughtful speakers on this topic. But how do you maximize, how do you increase the income? You pick a topic that is painful, you pick a problem that you can help a lot of people with you your, method of delivery is in one in which it can scale.
And there's different things to tweak the formula but figure out how you want to help people. And no matter what your day job is, or no matter [00:35:00] what your self-belief is on the limitations of your being able to help. Trust me, there are definite ways to be able to help in a maximum capacity.
And so trying to just figure what that means for you is half the battle. once you get that and then. the, other block is like the belief and the knowhow. Then there are, resources like this podcast. And there are books you can read. There are YouTubes you can watch, there are communities you can join, you can hire a coach you have to invest in yourself to be able to get to that point. If there are no free resources, you also have to commit to it. You have to [00:35:30] sacrifice. Other things, fun, money, sleep, whatever it is. To be able to do it. and this is not some like glorious thing that I want to impart wisdom on, but what do people what do you want your impact to be when you die?
That is the most simple thing that I think what, do you want people to remember you for? Was it? You got it? Yeah. Was it like having the best financial projections for this publicly traded company? Nobody gives a shit. I, helped this one pharmaceutical company merger with another pharmaceutical company like la.
Is that what you really want? And again, those things are necessary parts of life and this stupid capitalistic [00:36:00] society we decided to live in. Fine. But what's beyond that? And so maybe it's in the micro, it's like racing your kids to be the most positive, helpful people.
I, don't know, but it's, tough. Starting with finding one person. I've heard that to be a really good general thing. Like one person you can visualize and being like, how can I support this one person with the resources that I have?
And then think there's thousands. Tens of thousands, probably millions And, the most important thing is this, out of all you don't get to decide who you help.
You don't get to decide how [00:36:30] another human being receives your message. True. When we think that we can only do so much. We are not responsible for, nor do we get to dictate how our message is received. And how that message can actually ignite somebody else to be helpful.
And therefore, it is actually only job to provide help. And then the way that it is received is completely out of our world. moment you try to figure out who you're helping and how they're helped, then you're, going down this wrong path. Because this happens quite a bit. And so when, John and I speak on stages and we have, and maybe it's [00:37:00] even happened on this podcast, I don't know.
We, think of things to say that in our brains. It's based on my experience and my expertise, yada. Yeah. Here's one thing that I think is gonna really hit home, and I'll pause after I say it because I want to, have it drive emphasis the feels. But I guarantee you, for many of you listening, that's not what drove home for you.
Yeah. The thing that you're like, oh shit, Jerry and John said something that really opened my eyes to something. Could've been the most basic thing. That was just something that we say all the time. Something that we take for granted. Something that is not even in our periphery of, oh, this is [00:37:30] something that could be of value to somebody.
We are not. So we should never be the, judge of our own value, the judge of our own work. If we did, nobody would create art. Nobody would release music, nobody would do anything because in our own heads, We would just go into analysis paralysis and two, because there are no longer filters.
We don't need a radio station to play our music. We don't need a publisher to publish this podcast. No. We just go publish anywhere on the internet video written. Words, anything. And therefore, you are letting the market, you are letting the end user, you're letting the [00:38:00] person who can most benefit from your content find you and receive the most amount of help.
So think about even 20 years ago. Yeah. What we were taught, we are literally told these are the best books to read. These are the best things to read. These are the best TV shows to read. These are the experts. Yeah. Did any of those fools look like us? Who got to decide that? Yeah. So for decades and decades, we were told what to think and what to find valuable.
And then now this internet thing is democratizing everything. And I'm here to tell you that now, wherever you are, you can go help a Korean immigrant [00:38:30] kid who lives in Oklahoma that would've never had access to your words. That's it. And so that's the crazy part. and again, the other part too is size doesn't matter.
I know in creator land and all the worlds that we live in, it's all about how many, we don't even talk about like the actual number. in the thousands or in the millions, right? Oh, I have 1.2. Yeah. We, lose track on the tangible, the people human value that we can bring Yeah.
to, each an person. And so that's the other part that I would remind folks on the numbers are fine. And, if you are fortunate enough to be able to be in a position where you can impact a, ton of people in a very [00:39:00] happy and holistic way, fantastic.
The reality is most of us are gonna play into this very, very small world. This podcast and John started a Becher bubble. Neither is mine. This will not be Spotify is not gonna buy this show for a hundred million dollars and they're not gonna buy billboards for you, Jerry, because that's not the show.
The show. Yeah, exactly. And so, if we are judging ourselves by a metric that is not meant for our audience Then it also gets into our own heads. That's it. And, so this is the simplest trick in the world, and this requires a little bit of self-reflection.
Think about the [00:39:30] books, the people, the shows, all the things that have helped you the most in life. And then genuinely and objectively think about. Who are those people? And, how do they help me? That's it. They're not gonna be the most famous people in the world. They're not gonna be the most expensive things in the world.
They're just everyday people who decided to, going back to what we were saying earlier. Yeah. Who decided to share their pain and their lessons to you so that it would be easier for you. And that now because life works this way, is now on us to be able to pass that forward. It's not that hard.
It's super easy, but doing this every day is hard. Taking the first step is hard. Hard. But the, premise of is this a [00:40:00] viable thing to do? Super. Not, that hard. That's where the equation comes. The, concept is not that hard. Yeah. Rather, yeah.
That's the equation, impact multiply by income. Beautiful. Thank you so much, Jerry. Jerry, you are a keynote speaker. You have a incredible podcast. I just feel like you're starting stuff all the time. I feel like every, time I chat with you there's something new.
What is the big, thing that you wanna share for our audience to look forward to or, to check out aside from dear Asian Americans. Go Google that. Be Asians. All the Asian American, just like media [00:40:30] stuff, or maybe if you're working at a company, go check out Jerry's keynote speaker information.
Are you still running workshops these days? Yeah, we do workshops, we do keynotes, we do all sorts of stuff so my, PA again, trying to help people find their intersection of impact And even influence, right? The, growth steps in my own business and career. And you and I are both keynote speakers. The space of keynote speakers, the world of creators, even it's not a very diverse world. And even though the players might be, the decision makers are still not. Yeah.
And so there, there's so much I, [00:41:00] enjoy giving somebody both the tools and the confidence and the know-how to build a business around their story. Here's the fun fact. If, you take a look at the world's top 50, let's say keynote speakers that command the highest rates or have impacted the most number of people. Hold, that thought for a second. And imagine what they look like, and I don't need to tell you this, but I have an idea. One person and, take a step back from the small communities that we live in here. Yeah. Whether it's Canada or America. Yeah. The world.
60% of the world look like me and you. Yeah. That's more than 4 billion people who are alive today. Yep. That identify as Asian. Yeah. The [00:41:30] people who are seen as the best storytellers, the best speakers, the best impact thought leaders. Look one way. Yep. The majority of the world look one way. Yep.
So the opportunity to help have resin, and I'm, not saying that these guys are wrong. Don't take that outta context. Yeah. But we are able to then reach people who will also love us, not only for the content that we produce, but the context through which we can share these stories. Because I can share with you what it meant to be a person in corporate America that faced blatant racism, that face discrimination.
Yeah. Even from people who look like me. Yeah. That those guys [00:42:00] will never be able to do. And look, and we talked this about this before, we're pretty god damn privileged. Yeah. We're East Asian educated people in this country. And we're healthy, we're cis male. everything is there.
Yeah. If you have more additional identities, That stack on top that make privilege harder. It is more important, even for you than it is for me to go help people who identify in the way that you do. Yeah. Harder, more consistently. Because there are fewer people out there who can [00:42:30] resonate with that person.
That's right. And however you do it linkedIn, maybe not Twitter YouTube podcast, it be called X now whatever the hell it is. Speak your community. Yeah. Just in your own community. Yeah. Just in your own company friend. Just in your own, friend. A friend list. Yeah. At, dinner tonight with your family.
Just share. And so yeah. Share your truth. We, are we've been taught to minimize ourselves, our stories and to sum it all up, we're big. We're, big in our personalities. We're big in culture, we're big in our [00:43:00] size. The ability to take your energy, whatever that means, to expand it into the universe.
And I guarantee you do not let the small voices of the people that we're initially actually fearful of us being ourselves keep you from being yourself. Because we That's right. Asian people. That's right. Stand on the shoulders of millennia. That's right. Of history. That's right. Our food, our culture.
Yeah. The blood running through our veins. Sorry, America, you're only 250 years old. Our countries, our languages, our people are thousands and [00:43:30] tens of thousands of years old. And all of that lives through you. And so all of our ancestors, the wars that they fought, the survival, the all the stuff, what are you gonna make about that?
What are you gonna do based on their sacrifices? And then that's up to you. And again, I'm not saying that what I'm doing is right. I'm not saying what John is doing is right, but you gotta figure out how you impact the next generation. Because one day your grandkids and your great grandkids are gonna say, what the hell did Grandpa Jerry do for me?
And again being, a super wizzy PowerPoint person, ain't it? It never was. It never will be.[00:44:00] we'll, leave it at that. But this has been wonderful, John. I love talking to you and yeah, this is a lot of fun. I, had about Thank you so much, Jerry for coming on board.
Go check it out. Check out Jerry's stuff all over. We're gonna put, his links in his website up there. Thank you so much for your time, man. I so appreciate it. Awesome. Talk soon. Talk soon.
