Millicent, Dan, And Ien - Final Video
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Millicent, Dan, And Ien - Final Video: [00:00:00] Welcome to Big Asian Energy. Today I get the honor of speaking to three guests that I'm so excited about. I have Ian here at Millie. And Dan. These three guys have made an incredible film and they are pushing narrative on Asian Americans everywhere. Ian is the executive producer of Nourish Creative, which is a story design studio, and he was the former creative director of Jubilee where he led a creative team to garner over a.
Billion views and more than 5 million subscribers in just under three years. [00:00:30] Some of YouTube's most viral and world trending shows. And if you're part of our community, chances are pretty good that you've probably seen some of his work. He's also the former Chief Creative Mind mind of mindset at Dive Studios where he was writing, producing, and directing for world-class celebrities including Eric namm and.
Summer Walker and go to check out the, notes 'cause I can't say all of them without taking up most of today's meeting. He's also written direction editor work for Fortune 500 companies like Apple, Nike [00:01:00] NASA and, so many more. And his, piece. O to the world Stories actually won gold at the final national round, an American advertising award.
I'm also talking here today with Dan, who is a director and documentary filmmaker in LA who tells stories about outsiders finding their way in life. His work was featured in V Meals. Staff picks shorts of the weeks in a slam dance film festival and most recently in the Tribeca Festival where you premieres documentary per debuted accepted to critical acclaim.
And finally, we have Millicent Cho is a writer, [00:01:30] director and producer of independent films. Her ideas have always been around the fantasy lives of women. Their. Dreams, their desires and their worst nightmares. She's a graduate with the M A F A program from the filmmaking at N Y U and got a grant from the Hollywood Foreign Press Association for her thesis.
Short premiered at the Palm Spring International Short Fest and was an official selection for New York Shorts International Film Fest. She's done a ton of work and her work has been screened in South by Southwest Tribeca Film, LA Short Fest, new Filmmakers and others. Like I said, incredible background.
[00:02:00] Thank you guys so much for being here today. How are you guys? I'm, honored to be here and before we start recording this, you were mentioning how struck you were by the film and, yeah, I just want to give kudos to Millie and Dan and all the other folks who've made it happen as well.
'cause I think it was a collective effort, but yeah. What an honor. Oh, what an honor indeed. Speaking of the film, okay, so I watched it this morning. Can I just get you guys to describe it for, the people here? Yeah the film is called, I'm Not An Activist, and it follows a Dragon Combat Club in New York City and the people in the [00:02:30] community around them as they grapple with the surge of anti-Asian violence in the city.
And it's about their grassroots efforts to essentially fight back and, take back the idea of community idea of. Safety, personal safety, public safety, and just owning that and, not being apologetic about fighting for your own personal space and your, own sense of safety. I think there was one media outlet, from what I heard that did cover Dragon Combat Club, but they made them look like They say aesthetic Asian activism or kind of violent, [00:03:00] there was 2 1 1 kind of lumped them in with like performative activism saying oh, it's really cool to like film yourselves handing out pepper spray and walking old folks through the subway. But that's not real activism.
Real activism is what these people do over here. And I just felt like that categorization of what's helpful was not helpful. And then there was another article I think that actually profiled. Dragon Combat Club, and this is actually how I ended up hearing about them because I first read that article and thought, this is interesting.
These sound like interesting people, what they're doing. But [00:03:30] then I learned more about how Dragon and Combat Club felt mischaracterized by that article because there were some subtle intonations of them coming across as paranoid or hyper vigilance. And I think what we're doing is basic common sense when you look at what's happening and.
We're just doing what we can contribute. Our skillset is this we have a lot of combat training, a lot of self-defense, martial arts training. Why can't we provide that and not come off as fringe? strange. And so I just wanted to listen to their [00:04:00] voices and, hear about why they're doing what they're doing and make that attitude not as unusual.
Like why is that unusual? Why do we find the whole idea of defending ourselves? Strange or, unconventional. I think that's a pretty basic thing. Yeah. Why, was that a topic and, I'm assuming that's the meaning of the name. I'm not an activist, right? Like it was a reference to that article that came out that was gatekeeping, this is what real work should be, which is ridiculous concept.
The title I think is meant to provoke a conversation around what is helpful to your community? What is helpful to your [00:04:30] society? I think activism can be gate kept for sure by organizations that are like, Hey, we've been doing activist work. What you're doing over there is not activist work. And I think that's sometimes a silly distinction.
And I think there's a character in the film China Mack who says, I'm just a man of my people. I'm just helping out. I'm not an activist. And I think that's also an interesting thing to say is I think there's like a noble. Like adjective, like when you call yourself an activist, there's some element of I am being noble.
I am being better than the average person who doesn't care about these issues. But I think I like this realignment that, [00:05:00] China Mac is saying is I'm just helping out my people and that should be a natural thing to do. So I edited the film and watching a lot of the interviews with some folks.
There's a character named Vincent, and he just talks about seeing a lot of these attacks happen and it doesn't make it past the local news. And that no one's doing anything about it. And so just out of a sense of responsibility, he started offering his own teaching in his expertise in martial arts.
But he just says it's just like a very simple human fact that if you see people being attacked and people not standing up for those folks to step in and [00:05:30] contribute where you can. So I think we wanted to highlight that spirit as well, because when you hear the name Dragon Combat Club, automatically you think of.
Fighting or violence. But actually the first thing they teach is situational awareness and deescalation. And they continually emphasize that it's just a matter of getting people home safe and everyone has a right to feel safe. And I don't think that's something that, that's a really basic human right, that I think maybe a lot of folks seem to be maybe over intellectualizing perhaps, but It was just locals who were seeing a lot of attacks going on and people doing nothing about it, and [00:06:00] just decided to, Hey, we should do something about it and hand out self-defense tools and teach people to Yeah, be situationally aware and if the worst comes to worst, then defend themselves physically, but hopefully it doesn't have to come to that.
what, I'm hearing that mean is that there's people in our Asian American communities who, like create this identity oh, we gotta protect what this, imagine asian American community is from people who want to take advantage or exploit, for example, this imaginary group.
Yes. But their overprotectiveness actually ends up creating harm because it creates this idea that only certain voices [00:06:30] and only certain type of help can be allowed. Is that a correct way of interpreting that? Yeah, that's exactly it, as Ian was saying, over inte over intellectualization some of the problems.
And one of the things I really appreciated about D C is that they are really so community minded. Yeah. When I was watching the film it, strike me as this is something so simplistic and Yes, so powerful. It's on the ground. It's, literally grassroots, just literally a group of volunteers teaching something so incredibly basic as.
You guys were talking about is situational awareness. How to stand up for yourself. how to get [00:07:00] away from danger. At a time I saw two things. One, Asian Americans were actively being attacked. I had friends were followed from subway station. I had myself, I had a guy come up to me, push me, spat on me, call me a chink, and then walk right by.
These were things happening not only to myself, but so many people around me, and yet I. All I was hearing was this very highbrow political discourse that almost seemed like it was just, talk. So when I watched your documentary, what I felt was like, oh my God. This is something so [00:07:30] simplistic and yet so needed.
So I'm almost a little shocked 'cause I didn't realize the, other side of the article or something like that. I didn't, I'm almost a little shocked that there was pushback against something like That's my question. Where's this coming from? Is it like a crap bucket thing?
Is it just no, this is the way to do it? I have a theory I have idea I'm trying to tease out, which is a lot of where Asian Americans have gotten are like first footholds of, I would guess like power or influence is in media is in politics is in academics for sure.
And in these spaces, I think. What Millie [00:08:00] was talking about was like, you wanna argue you want to represent your community in this hypothetical, you wanna represent your community as this abstract concept that needs help from the larger power, the larger whether it be like the liberal power structure and how do you appeal best to the general liberal power structure at large.
And some people also take the, how do I appeal to the conservative power structure at large? And I think what I find Dissatisfying and perhaps ineffective about this method is that you're always appealing to someone else for your protection or for your [00:08:30] personal gain. Yes. What I found so powerful about what D C is doing is like what you're saying is like it's totally grassroots.
They can walk into any store on the blocks they live in, and they know all the people who work in those restaurants, who work in those shops, and how many people who go online and have the right tweet or the right take about the latest attack or the latest event, know the people in their community and actively do direct action towards making their community a better place.
And so I think for me it is about emphasizing. People on the ground doing work in their [00:09:00] own spaces more than it is, and taking away from this kind of totally abstract, hyper political in the sense that it's all about having a certain opinion either in the online space or the academic space. It's all about just emphasizing some basic human shit.
That we all deserve. We all deserve to feel safe, and we all deserve to feel connected to each other. I'll, be really honest. Like actually when Dan first approached me about editing the film I'm a really lucky person as a current American to have grown up without experiencing [00:09:30] much racism or any kind of attacks.
When the attacks first came out on the news in the media, like my first thought that came to mind was like, oh, this is probably really rare. Or there's only a sub subsegment of this. But then spending some more time interacting with other Asian Americans and diving into the footage.
It's like what I realized is within the Asian American population, which is huge, there's so much segmentation and separation of different kinds of bubbles, and I think a lot of the folks who are in the academic or the higher realm or writing these articles or theorizing about activism, [00:10:00] things like that, not to discredit their work, but it's, not.
As, Chong says in the film, they don't have much day-to-day interaction with. The folks who are actually seeing the attacks happen There was a term that stood out for me when I was watching this. I think it was in one of the interviews when someone used the term the predatory inclusion.
And that really stood out for me 'cause I've never heard that word before. And it was in the context that if you're taking a look at a P I, there's this sudden politicization around us. In the past few years, as in like we were invisible, model, minority, invisible and outta nowhere.
It was like, [00:10:30] here, let's create a lot of things. And then now I'm just not hearing anything about it anymore. I'm curious, what is your take on that idea of predatory inclusion? I see Dan's got a big smile there. I'll, say what I think my inklings on that term are. Obviously, I don't speak for, Ron who was talking in the film, almost like this thing of Hey, you've been excluded in the past as a group.
We're now letting you come into this space, whether it be a political space or a, different kind of space. And now because you're in this space do this, and this and act this, and this way we're [00:11:00] letting you in. And I think a way to get out of that mindset is If you have strong ties within your own community, if you are proud of your own community, if you feel like you guys have a strong identity, then you can go into another space and say, Hey, I already know who I am.
I know what I'm looking for. I know where I align with you and I know where I disagree with you. And you get to dictate things more on your own terms. they like predatory inclusion is like keeping you in the mindset of you're lucky to be here. ' cause you're here. Think these thoughts act this way.
you keep doing the right thing maybe, we'll move you up. You were [00:11:30] talking about the, bamboo ceiling before we started recording. I think some of that is if you keep listening to what they tell you about, like why you're here, what you're good at, what you deserve, how you should move this way or that way, then I think that contributes to the idea of a glass ceiling or a bamboo ceiling or any of that.
And I think the way to counteract that is to build strong ties. Between yourself, the people around you, whether they're Asian or otherwise, just strong ties with your people and with that mindset, you don't walk into any space and [00:12:00] say, oh, thank you for having me. You're including me now.
What can I do for you? Just see it more as an equal exchange. Let's help each other from a place of power rather than a place of subservience. I would say somehow there's a tendency to. Try to operate well within the system versus realizing the power that we have to like, create our own system. I, love that word, create because that is the core of it, right?
It is stepping into the idea of we don't have to wait for someone to offer a seat at their [00:12:30] table. For us to then find belonging, but rather to say no, like this is, we're gonna take matters in our own hands, and if this is what makes sense for what our people need, then stepping more into that.
How did you guys come to meet these people? Like, where was that? who first found and heard about this and decided, Hey, We need to put these guys on film. As Millie was saying like there's, a podcast called Escape from Plan A. And they, talk about media, politics public safety, all issues that you could talk about as far as being Asian American.
That was kinda like the first point of contact. They talked to them, they [00:13:00] were getting the message of D c out and then, I had learned that they were looking, plan A, was looking for a, some kind of project to do. They have fair amount of Patreon supporters very fortunately.
And so there was some funding that could be accessed to create a film project. And I think I heard that episode, I read the articles about P C and I just asked them like, Hey, would you potentially be interested in a documentary about these folks? And the larger theme being Asian Americans taking charge of their own fundamental right to safety [00:13:30] and walking the streets of their city.
And conversations organic and developed. We got put in touch with D C we asked them if they were interested and it all just naturally. The ball started rolling from there. I'm really curious to hear this, is that when you guys started making this, and I don't know if you guys felt this, I know I've talked to people, creators, writers, filmmakers, who, when they seeing Asian American focused content, There's a little bit of this hesitance into stepping into the claiming of that, and D C certainly there's already this kind of politicization around it.
Was [00:14:00] there any kind of hesitancy or challenge into saying, you know what we're gonna make a film about this. it represents us. Was there any concerns about pushback or anything like that? I think that's a fair question for sure. I think we've all anyone, correct me if I'm wrong, I think we've all grappled with that idea of Hey, will this be good for Asians, Americans, are we representing each other correctly?
but I do think, like real honesty and real liberation comes from the idea of anything you put out doesn't have to represent everyone. In fact, you should embrace the [00:14:30] possibility of being wrong or being challenged, I would say. And being okay with disagreements and discussion.
Like I think we do want to make a film that has a different point of view. B provokes people into having conversations and C invites disagreement if you happen to disagree. I think that is something that is more exciting and more interesting than making something that no one will be offended by.
But also no one will really think about because just slips away from their mind as soon as they finished watching it. And so think from minute one, there was always the intention of, Hey, [00:15:00] let's. Talk about something that we don't feel like is being talked about or being elevated in, film or, media.
Okay. That was one of those moments that I think is so critical, especially as creators. I know so many creators who are afraid to put their work out there because they're afraid of that attack because they're afraid of being quote unquote controversial or creating that. And what I'm hearing here is that No, Embrace it. Because what is going to last is, what some people might see as controversial. And when you create conversation, that's what creates something worth creating. Yeah, and also I personally, I do not claim any ownership [00:15:30] over Asian Americans as a whole. I don't think the film purports to speak on them as a whole.
I think it's almost more just Hey, look at these people, hear what they're doing, listen to what they're saying, and that's all we're saying. You know what I mean? I don't think it should be anyone, any Asian American person's responsibility to have to speak or represent their people entirely.
I think that's ridiculous. And we don't ask that of other people, so I don't think it's fair to ask that of ourselves either. you're absolutely right. like that's not ever been the expectation. We're sharing stories and. Asian Americans, that even the term these days have such a [00:16:00] flexible identity.
Including South Asians. You know we start taking a look at what even categorizes Asians who claims that identity. It's a complicated topic. So what would you say to somebody, let's say, A few years behind you guys have, created various works that have been featured and have these accolades.
What would you say to somebody who's starting up in that and there's a little bit more trepidation and fear? I feel like the best advice I could give to my own younger self would be like, don't try to be liked by others. Double down even more on exactly who you are. Regardless of if it's [00:16:30] polarizing or people don't like you, because in that sense, you're going to attract over time the people that resonate.
And also, you're not gonna have to try to like uphold this image, which takes so much energy. And so if you follow your curiosity, if you speak in your own voice, if you are exactly who you are, over time, it just ends up leading you exactly where you're meant to be versus this idea of where you. think you should be, which is the grass is never greener on the other side, which I think is a lesson that I've repeatedly learned in my life.
And you feel an authenticity there when you feel the love that someone has for their [00:17:00] craft and the real core heart of them coming at, which can't be replicated by the way. The more you're yourself, the more people cannot replicate that and that differentiates you from all the other folks out there as well.
So I think there's enough. People trying to get a lot of views. I think there's enough people trying to be famous and big and stuff. I think we need more people who are being authentic. That's an overused term, but truly just radically being themselves. I don't think that authenticity is an overstated thing.
I think that the way you put it is true, which is create what feels right for you. Then the [00:17:30] right people will come find you rather than trying to please everyone and make something that's completely not memorable. I, think that is an important piece. Millie, what would you tell either somebody starting off a few years ago or you're meeting yourself five years ago?
It's hard. Like everyone, everyone's so different. We all come to as film makers, we I know that I, came to film very late. In, life. I went to school with people who were kids who had a cam like the whole kind of like archetypal story of oh, my dad gave me a camera when I was seven and I've been making [00:18:00] films ever since.
I was not one of those people. I made my first film when I was 30 which is relatively late. But there are advantages that come with that because when I started filmmaking, I was ready I was ready to really like, Focus and I had a certain amount of professional experience working like I had a career in advertising.
Did, you feel like your career in advertising gave you a different perspective or did it help you in some way in that. Yeah, absolutely. There's so much that you learn about being a person in the professional world just by [00:18:30] having been working in jobs that you may have hated, for example.
But that experience invaluable they're coming to any, sort of new practice. But in any case, I would just say like whatever it is you want to try just go for it. If you're like me, you're someone who will overthink every possible decision creative or logistic or, otherwise.
And I think it's important just to say I'm just gonna try this I have this idea and I'm going to go for it. it's really important to learn to love the process. Filmmaking [00:19:00] is so process oriented and process driven, like at every given point. To make any sort of film it's gonna be an investment of time.
Were a film like what you guys have just made here. How long is that actual process? We started working on pre-production in what, November? Dan? November. Yeah. Like maybe our initial conversation was like late October, early November. And then filming was like five or six days in early December.
Beginning of December. Yep. And then we brought Ian [00:19:30] on to cut. Like late December you joined Ian, but then it wasn't like full on day to day, every day, every week it was like, In between your other work obligations and your life obligations. ' cause again, it's a short documentary. it's not, it doesn't have a huge budget.
Like no one's capitalizing off of this film. And so you do have to fit it in between your other work and, your life stuff. Ended up taking a few months, but not a few months of editing. I remember right after shooting, Dan was like, Stan and I were both like, Hey man, [00:20:00] we don't wanna sit on this too long.
Let's just bang it out and get it done in January. And then it always takes longer than you expect, but we've done I think, three or four cuts or so, and a lot of it has been honing in with a lot of the footage and getting, our own collective feedback. And that process has on and off, yeah, not full-time hours, but on and off, I think since January.
So maybe Three, four months or so. Yeah. how many days or weeks would you estimate Ian, if we went all in? Just actively working on it? I, feel like if we went all in, had no other projects, like we could've probably done it in a month, I think. Yeah. So four weeks.
I, [00:20:30] Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. But this is a passion project for all of us. We all have other work going on, so Yeah. why taken us through May to, almost complete the film. and I would say I'm impressed that we've even been able to get it could have taken much longer for us to even get to this point, that's true. We've made a ton of progress in a short period of time. What, was the hardest part of, making a film like this? I, have to hand it to documentarians like Dan and, certainly to Ian as the editor, documentary has its special.
Rigors. because it's, not like we're [00:21:00] on a typical scripted project where you have a script. You know what the story is, so that from a narrative standpoint, you typically know what's up. We went into it knowing that the d c was going to be our subject.
But we also knew that we'd be interviewing a lot of members of the group. And we didn't necessarily know what the flow of the. Narrative of the finished piece would be meaning like who the characters would be. Who you'd see on screen. So that's an interesting thing.
I never thought of that, because when you start [00:21:30] making a film, you have no idea how it's gonna end in the terms of will the subjects say the things that you expect them to say and, how will that come off or, Were there any kind of surprises that showed up along the way as you were making it?
Either from the subjects or from what you discovered about the story? for something to be surprising, there would have to have been an expectation. That would be either affirmed or undermined. And I think for doc, like you don't really know what you're gonna get.
That's one of the hardest. Aspects of it. I'll just add, I was just gonna say I'll, just add on to when Dan was explaining the project to me in the shoot, it was [00:22:00] like, it sounded like you guys went there Just to talk to a shit ton of people. And then everyone was like, you should talk that, let's go over there.
Go over there. Oh dude, we should film. Oh, that's good. Yeah. And then you, get these Hispanic guys on the left, like shouting this, black woman approaching like you can film here. Like just everything. There's so much on the cutting room floor of the craziness of New York that's not in the film, but it was just like four or five dense just days of just absolute, just chaos and not to make it sound like unorganized, 'cause I don't think that's what it was, but just a lot of activity.
Openness. Yeah, Just talking to [00:22:30] everyone and then honing it into okay, what's like the throughline essence that all these people can unify and speak to which was in the edit process. So yeah, that's a lot of the fun of it. Yeah. 'cause when I was watching the cliffs, there was a lot of chaos going on in the background.
I think there was some parts where you're, interviewing someone walking down the subway and there's people screaming and yelling in the background, and I'm just trying to make sense of all this, is such an interesting thing in all of your bios we talk about soulful stories and, the inner lives of women and the outsiders.
My first question was how did you guys all [00:23:00] end up deciding to take that path in, your own filmmaking journey? Millie, you're coming from an advertising perspective. I don't usually see Asian Americans who decided I'm gonna go into corporate and go that path, which is what my parents probably would've expected me to go down and then one day and being like, you know what?
I'm quitting my job and going into telling these stories. Where was that exploration coming from for you? Good question. I would say that I, see it as the opposite, like the corporate it, interrupted my creative life, my artistic life. Because [00:23:30] when I was a kid I always wanted to be an artist. My dream job technically would've been like to be an actor, maybe. that was what I wanted to be when I was a kid. I feel like I was exposed to a lot a lot of different types of people from different walks of life doing kinds of things.
Did your parents support you in going to film and, the creative? Not at all. they're immigrants, they really just wanted me to Do something normal and stable. Be a doctor or law since I was a good writer they figured okay, great, she can be a lawyer.
My parents were not. Supportive of the whole artistic [00:24:00] path. You told me you really wanna be an actor or do a creative thing, you can maybe do it after you go to college that maybe after undergrad. That was great. I, loved it. So Ian, your background was in you worked for Jubilee and everything like that first and foremost, what was it like working at Jubilee and producing all their content?
More than a billion views, you guys, That's a b that's a big number. I actually had a background in advertising like Millie did, not in the corporate sense, but I, made advertisements and I edited advertisements and [00:24:30] directed them. Yeah. And I just felt like it wasn't connected to a community.
'cause we'd be making these things and handed off to an agency and it go to this place where, I don't know who's watching this there's just no connection with the final viewer. And The reason I joined Jubilee is 'cause I thought we could have our own audience and we could serve them and create our own community.
And so in that sense it was incredibly fun. It blew up like beyond I think what I had expected in the beginning and like just being a part of a startup of a small group of people punching above their weight day to day. Just coming and be like, we're gonna change [00:25:00] the world and bring all these people together and.
Revolutionized humanity. It's like the we're all in our mid early twenties or something like that, and gung-ho and so I think it was a blast in that sense, and Dan was there for the whole ride. We were able to have a lot of fun doing that at Jubilee. So it was perfect for that time in my life and I, loved it.
I, a hundred percent do agree that if Jesus was alive today, he'd be an influencer without question. He'd heck yeah. On YouTube. He'd have YouTube following he'd on TikTok. Oh yeah. He'd be telling stories and people be like, what are you talking? Yeah, exactly.[00:25:30] Some of that stuff he was talking about is highly controversial.
That comes back Oh, totally. To Dan's point, right? Don't hide from the controversy. Embrace the controversy. Dan you were nodding along a lot during this whole part of the story. Were you part of the Jubilee creative process as well? Early stage? Early stage? I think I joined Jubilee as a director in 2018.
I think the subscriber count was around 500 K at that point. And yeah, like over the years, Ian was creative directing. We were like slowly bringing people onto the team. Team went from five [00:26:00] full-timers to like, eventually now I think it's 30 something, like that. And going from half a million subscribers to six, 7 million now, I think it's like nearing 8 million.
I think what Ian's saying is like, what was really fun was it felt like there was no parents that, no parent energy, like when you're doing, I'm sure ads or you're doing movies for a studio, like there is kinda this hey, we're making this thing, there's a lot of investments. So this is what you're beholden to, but.
Our prerogative from Jason, our friend who's the C e O of Jubilee, he was just look, here are north stars. It's empathy, it's connection, it's inspiring [00:26:30] conversations. It's challenging people's views. That's the umbrella. Now go out and create something that fits under that. And so putting our heads together in rooms, trying to figure out how we would even structure something like that.
Coming in with new concepts, putting them out there into the world, and then getting. You post it and then that afternoon you're seeing like a million views pop up. You're like, holy crap what, did we make? And such a fun time. Such a huge moment I think, in our careers and our like, personal development as people.
I will say speaking about [00:27:00] Asian Americanness and bamboo ceiling, anything like that. Jubilee is a diverse company. Like everyone's there, everyone's, a lot of people are represented. I will say it did feel different being at a place, and I've been at a few different companies. It was different being at a place with Asian leadership primarily.
How at least when I was there. It's something that you just feel like when you I don't know if you had this experience, but when you go to where your parents are from or your ancestors are from, like you walk around the street and. You can take race off of one of your defining factors and now you're like a [00:27:30] short guy or a tall woman, or a guy that dresses like this, or a person that like walks like this instead of having that racial defining characteristic.
And I definitely felt that at Jubilee, like you could say whatever you want, you can act however you want. And it's not even you weren't doing that before, but there's just something a little different about it. That I did feel was very empowering and was almost like You, realize you had been working with like maybe a 20 pound vest on yourself, and now the vest has taken off and you're like way more nimble.
You're way more quick, you're way more maneuverable like It is actually a very interesting thing [00:28:00] to be a part of. And when you see 20 pound vest what, is that 20 pound vest what do you think that would be? Yeah, I would love to try to articulate it. If you're in a space you feel like your race is some kind of.
Deviation from the norm. I do feel like there is some sense of either, this is how I felt about it as a young person. Was either I have to try to find some way to fit in. To the, norm. Or I gotta embrace that outsider identity and do something rebellious or contradictory.
But it was like always make your decision. Here's [00:28:30] your decision tree. Try to fit in or try to go ball out. And what was interesting was when that was taken away. It's like anything you say or do now does not need to be like either fit in or, go out. It was just like, That's not even a part of it.
Just make your decision based on anything else. And I think maybe that's what I'm trying to articulate with the 20 pound invest thing is it's, not even saying that. Like when you're around people that aren't like you, it's a bad thing or they hate you or they don't like you, it's more just like my decision making became different.
my mindset became different. I hear [00:29:00] this a lot from a lot of Asian Americans. It's, a strange thing, right? Like I feel like the only way I've ever tried to process is that we have a invisible experience in that. It's not like what black people or let's say Latinos experience that might be quite different as an experience in the sense that we are oftentimes compared to white people, right?
We're, called the invisible minority. We've been labeled as such. There are school, Ian, I think you're from Kansas. Originally Dan's from Kansas. I'm from Kansas, Georgia. Sorry, Dan. Dan, you're from Kansas. Sorry. Yeah My [00:29:30] mistake. No worries. but I, think there was a school board that basically decided to categorize.
All Asians as part of white because they're just like, oh you guys aren't really underprivileged. They're gonna categorize you the same. But yet there is that difference. We, do experience this perpetual foreigner syndrome. We do experience that. We do get treated a little bit very, subtly sometimes and sometimes not so subtly I've never heard of it described as this, but that was perfect description. This 20 pound vest, that's there is a decision. You either embrace your full asianness and you, just own it. Or you [00:30:00] just try to hide it. If I were to flip what you've just described as an advantage per se I think it's very interesting being an Asian American being able to identify I wouldn't say our experiences are the same as other minority groups, but I wouldn't necessarily say that there's no understanding we can come to.
I think we do look different than most people in this country, and we share that experience. We do. outlined in this film, we have had instances, brushes with violence. We've had experiences with poverty. Like there's I think, an advantage sometimes that I see of being [00:30:30] Asian American in the sense it's it, is an open gate to empathy with anyone you come into an encounter with because you have had some flavor, some element of all of their experiences and, I like to look at things from that perspective.
We are obviously are affected by our differences obviously are affected by being a minority, but there are so many blessings that are conferred. There are opportunities, I should say, opportunities. Because of our status and because of our identity that I, just, I enjoy it. I think it's cool.
I think it allows us to enter spaces. I think it allows us to connect [00:31:00] with people. I like it. I enjoy it. a memory comes to mind where one time amidst the internal team at Jubilee, one time we were discussing like, so what is the Jubilee persona? You remember that Dan? if people think of Jubilee as a personality of a type of person in high school, who would we be?
And we ended up saying it would be like that guy who gets along with everyone is nice and is like literally nobody dislikes and is pretty intellectual, can have all types of conversation. the guy or probably most likely gal that [00:31:30] like can go to any social group and hang out with all of them and hang with the punks, hang with the, our kids, hang with the jocks. Go with the anime kids, right? Like you're hopping from culture to culture. I'm just thinking of the personalities we had on the team because we were all united by this sense of importance of bringing people together.
And so I think inherently I'm not trying to speak for Asian Americans, but inherently just as human beings, we individually. Having maybe had those experiences of separation or whatnot, all of us individually in our own lives, I think were types of people who got along with, weren't that [00:32:00] exclusive and had experience with all these types of different demographics.
In that way. I think it was pretty cool that we all came together like that. As creative director, how did you choose the kind of stories that you guys would go after? It's kinda like the same question that you know we're looking at here, but like how did you decide there's no mom and dad, so how did you decide, all right, Dan go, tackle this as a topic, and then you know we'll, see if that does.
I would say there was good tension in the company where I was the person who was like, Dan whatever you're interested in, just go out and make it, man. No, whatever you're interested in. And then [00:32:30] Jason will be the guy who'll be like whoa, We gotta make sure people like this.
And it's entertaining and it gets used. So with that combination, I think it was the intersection of, okay, what is going to be entertaining, accessible, and easily understandable to the masses. Then what is our team interested in exploring? Because our team inherently are creative people who want to explore stuff and that makes them really passionate about.
Awesome. I love that. It's, very much a mom and dad conversation, right? Yeah. Dad, we were the mom and dad. Just go out there and just do what you love. Pursue your passion. The [00:33:00] mom is put on your seatbelt guys. Exactly. I actually wanna piggyback off of that because I think tension, healthy tension.
Is like the bedrock of, I think, strong and interesting filmmaking and I think, oh yeah, there is an illusion perhaps that we all pedal in culture, which is like a director walks onto set or walks on a location and is a genius and has this fully formed vision. And then it's all about making sure that vision happens exactly the way it's supposed to.
And, I feel like. Actually what I find, what makes interesting work, and you can see this historically too, like [00:33:30] all the cultural touchstones that you love, were born out of fire, were born out of tension. And just knowing that, like we're just gonna walk right into that because there is something interesting.
And to even go back to an earlier thing you asked about like advice It's not always meant to feel perfect and good. There should be some elements of creative and stimulating tension and conflict in whatever idea you're exploring. You care about something you should think about it, and you should also think about the thing that is opposing that and, really try to clarify that [00:34:00] too, because that'll just clarify your own thoughts and feelings even more.
So yeah, I think that's something that's really important. Tension and, conflict and, in a healthy way. I felt that a lot in, even the process of making this film, which I, appreciate that so much with how we collaborated. 'cause I, really feel like it was the best of all our brains coming together.
We had no idea in the beginning like what this film would be, and then by the end it was a culmination of all the best ideas, which, is a mark of a satisfying collaboration, I feel like. Oh, yeah. And there's tension in like the creative process. [00:34:30] I remember we were showing cuts and people were like, yo, like I'm not feeling this part.
I'm not feeling this part at all. And we're like, okay, that's fine. like what, is that eliciting? And then, and what can we do about it? And do we like that? Are we not like that? it's all been helpful. And part of growing into filmmaking is like realizing that it's part of the process.
It's not wrong. It's not going off the rails. In fact, it should feel like this. It should feel like there's real forces at play here and you just do your best to, navigate them and manage them. And Dan, at one point you said something that [00:35:00] kind of got burned into my brain in a good way.
We were talking about how important it is to keep the faith. Throughout the process, as difficult as it gets as lost as one may feel when, you're not sure what's going on, there's always this kind of like dark moment of the soul thing when you're working on a film.
There may be multiple dark moments, to be honest. When you're writing, when you're shooting, certainly in post where you're just not, you feel like you've lost the thread and you're not really sure what, to do next. And the important thing is to keep the faith. To know that you will find your way out of it.
You [00:35:30] can lean on your collaborators and and, at some point a solution will become apparent and just have to push through to get to that point and not be overly concerned about the fact that it feels like a problem at the moment.
Yeah. You own it. You own it. just to bring it back to D c it's like they saw a problem. They did something about it. And I don't think they would pretend to think that, oh, we've now solved the problem of violence. We've now fixed how Asian Americans are seen or treated, but like they're just doing what they can.
And I think that's all we can do. And so when we're working on a film, the problems come [00:36:00] and you just do what you can and then you finish it and you put it out in the world. And I just read like this humbling interview with Martin Scorsese talking at the age of 80, he was saying that he's just starting to understand what movies are and he is there's no time.
There's no time. I'm just starting to understand what movies are and there's no time. And I'm like, and he was saying that about Awa, Kira s was saying that about his own life. And I'm just like, we should all have that mindset of there's so much more to learn. I'm just here to do my best and, add my contribution to the world, but we're not gonna be perfect and I don't think we should have that expectation. I'll, [00:36:30] drop one quote that I read somewhere. I don't know who said this, but it goes, mastery is the art of skillfully. Avoiding conclusions. Oh, isn't so good. Isn't that so good? Oh, man. Enjoy the process. Enjoy the process.
There are a lot of levels there. Fascinating. Yeah, I think about that. I was like, woo that's, out there. We're talking about like how, like a masterpiece is never completed. Because you're gonna keep growing and every time you grow, you're gonna come back and you wanna refine and refine it.
What you guys just shared was actually answering one of the [00:37:00] questions I was gonna ask, which is you guys all produce impressive, incredible content. Some of your VPs have been viewed millions and millions of times. My question was gonna be like, what's the secret? And I felt Dan, your answer of finding the tension like that really hit home for me.
What are your thoughts, Millie and, Ian? It's important to Learn to enjoy the process. Good artists really they are very process oriented. They're, willing to try different things, to experiment, to make mistakes. I think that's really important and, to not get [00:37:30] stressed about it and to not, get caught up in the whole perfectionism track.
You only get to call yourself an artist or a creative if you finish things. All of your favorite movies and books have all these mistakes in them and, at this point you love them so much that the mistakes are part of what make them good. And so I think what Millie's saying is spot on, is like oftentimes like the result is how you formulate a process.
And then all the best shit we have that we've seen in our culture is chockfull of mistakes and discoveries. And Just knowing that and embodying that. I [00:38:00] heard a quote earlier, I think it was on like Reddit or something like that, and somebody posted that anything worth doing is also worth doing poorly.
cause it's the opposite of what you usually expect, which is anything worth doing is worth doing well, but it's no, we get caught in the perfectionism and it's if you're gonna do it, it's okay to sometimes make mistakes. I'm gonna pass the mic finally over to, Ian here.
'cause I wanna hear. Oh man, there's so much. You're a golden ruler. Good. Like gold. I was trying to catch in this waterfall, I was just thinking like for a moment in my life, I was really caught in perfectionism [00:38:30] and trying to make the best work or like the work that would be the most whatever.
And I found that over time it became very paralyzing because there was only one solution or only the best way. But what has been really freeing, I think in the past couple months especially, has been. Just reminding myself that I know what I know. I can only move from there. And there is no right answer.
There is no best. And there's a quote that my friend shared with me that has been really freeing and it has been nothing is more important than anything else. That has been so freeing for me [00:39:00] because we, all have this, I. Programming of this hierarchy of what might be more valuable or more better or whatever.
But it's like the way we approach ourselves and our self-worth. If we feel like we have to do something in order to gain value, we're never gonna satisfy that itch. But if you know that you are totally valuable as you are. Without doing anything it frees you to do what you want to do and that in turn, I think frees other people as well.
I wanna bring it out. I usually have two final takeaway questions, which is, what's your golden rule or golden rules, if you have any. to be honest, I felt like you guys [00:39:30] dropped so many, so I'll just throw it out here. Do you guys have anything? And then finally is, if not, do you have a question that you wish people would ask you more often?
So there's something you could share about. So important to, go where the good people are. As I've gotten older, I've found that, I am often on the same wavelength as other Asians. You know how like at the end of a yoga class the teacher will sometimes say the light in me sees the light in you.
version of that is The Dark in Me sees the dark in you. Wow. there's a certain kind of recognition that you have with [00:40:00] people that you can meet sometimes. And I think when, that happens, you try to be friends with these people and you try to continue to work with 'em as much as you can.
First thing that came to mind, John, as you're asking the que like golden rule, like literally, I thought of the golden rule treat other people the way you want to be treated. Is I think there's this word. I don't know if it's a real or fake word, but sonder, it's like when you look out of the car or the bus or the street and you see all these people living their lives, it's like the feeling of realizing like each one of these people has like just as deep and nuanced and [00:40:30] visceral and expansive of a consciousness as you do.
And they're not NPCs in a video game like they're real people living their own lives and they're all the main characters. And think I feel that more and more gradually as I get older wow let's try and really treat everyone in a way that they're real human beings. Yeah. I think it, comes down to finding your people and it's a professional thing or just a life thing, find the people that you connect with.
That is what this is all about. That is what I think we're exploring. An aspect of it in this film is people finding their people through [00:41:00] tragic and violent circumstances, but finding their people in community nonetheless. I just think that's the most important thing. If you find that you have strong ties in your life, I find that everything else will, follow from there.
Finally, thank you guys so much This has been, I think the, word was a waterfall of gold and, this has legitimately just been, I've endless notes. Thank you guys for your time. How do we find out more about, I am not an activist at, where can we go watch it? When does it come out? All that so it's forthcoming when it comes out.
We're still finishing it. It's color sound mixing, final music [00:41:30] tweaks, all that. And my hope is that we can talk to y'all about scheduling this podcast so that when it does come out, we can like, put a link to it where there's like show notes or, something and then people can just go follow that link straight to the film.
Perfect. Yeah we'll, definitely do that and then we'll also promote it on all our other platforms and everything like that. In the meantime, is there anywhere you guys want people to go to or follow you guys? Instagram? We, have the, links you guys sent, so we'll put that in the show notes.
But is there anywhere else that you guys want me to do a call out to? I will admit, I went [00:42:00] onto Instagram to see if I am not an activist, was taken. It is not. Oh, All right. Let's, get that. I'm starting to wonder if maybe I should start an Instagram. We don't have one yet for all you guys listening to at home.
Please go and follow Ian Millie and Dan. We'll make sure that their Instagram's websites, all the links are in the show notes and when the film comes out, which should be at the same, around the same time that this episode comes out, we'll make sure that the link is in there as well. Thank you guys so much for your time and your wisdom.
It has been an absolute [00:42:30] pleasure having you here.
